ND: Some claim that what you and your Croatian Population Movement are doing is politics, and politics of the bad sort?
People say all sorts of things. As far as I am concerned, what I do is above all a religious duty, my Bible, then a patriotic duty, and in no way related to politics, if we do know what politics is. We are an apolitical, non-party and all-Croatian movement whose task is a demographic, spiritual, economic, and social renewal of the Croatian people.
Aren't these the most important questions?
There is no reason to live in fear because of that, and avoid having children exactly because of that. The children are missing not because we are really poor, but because we are poor in spirit, faith and morality. There was plenty of children in the previous century and the one before it, and this was the same country, same climate and the life was much harder. Therefore, the material reasons are not the real reason for a low birth rate.
What is the real reason then?
I think that the Croat person has today morally regressed. The material side is, naturally, important, but not the most important. Evidence for that can be found by looking at poor and rich countries. There is plenty of children in poor countries, while the rich have no children. Therefore, money does not give birth to children. What is important is a consciousness about life as a gift from God, a religious element that has been ignored. Our people have become practicing atheists. They celebrate Christmas, Easter, in principle do not reject faith, but in practice they are denying their faith, denying that moral law.
You said that there is no demographic renewal without spiritual renewal. What do you mean by spiritual renewal?
For me as a believer and a priest, spiritual renewal is a return to God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Gospel. Without such spiritual transformation of humanity there can be no happiness, nor peace on Earth, nor a demographic renewal, which is an important goal. During Communism, our people departed from God and today we have a generation which in practice lives as if there were no God, nor soul, although they do not specifically deny the existence of God.
They have deserted moral and religious values in their lives. Furthermore, spiritual renewal is a return to our old national values. Throughout their history, Croats were renowned as a nation with a lot of children; as a nation which respected and preserved and whose family was strong because the respect for God existed within that family; we are also renowned as an honest and industrious nation. Today, we have gone bad. Communism, atheism, materialism, first and second Yugoslavia, emigration to Western Europe, all of that led to a moral degeneration of our people.
For you, atheists are immoral, while believers are moral people?
I did not say that. Some atheists are honest, as there are dishonest people among the believers. However, it is a fact that faithful make less mistakes, commit less crimes and murders than non-believers. In the last war our soldiers carried rosaries and did not kill, which cannot be said for Muslims and Serbs. Therefore, a return to the Catholic faith is important for spiritual renewal. I believe that the Catholic Christianity is the true faith of Christ.
And other's are "untrue"?
Others developed later in history. Jesus Christ founded only one church, and that is today the Catholic Church. Jesus said to Peter: "Peter, you are a rock and on that rock I shall build my church!" Peter was the first bishop in Rome and the uninterrupted line of bishops of Rome, popes, goes from him to the present pope, John Paul II.
Jesus did establish Christianity, rather than only the Catholic faith, as you claim?
Christianity is a wider term. It encompasses Catholicism, Protestant churches, Eastern Orthodoxy etc. But, do Eastern Orthodox have Peter!? Eastern Orthodox Churches do not have Peter, which means that they would have to change the Bible. Protestants definitively do not have Peter, let alone more recent religious sects. Jesus Christ founded one, rather than two or three churches. Which church is that? The one that has Peter, the Pope, therefore the Catholic church.
Hence other Christian churches do not have the right to claim origin in Jesus?
They do, but they do not have the right to claim origin in Jesus and apostle Peter. They were founded much later.
Let us go back to atheism. You are a strong opponent of atheism, aren't you?
Yes.
With such attitude you bring the individual freedom in danger?
I don't. What is the individual freedom?
For example, among other, the right for every person to decide on his or her own whether to be a believer or not?
Fine, but that does not mean that I do not have the right to convert misguided and those without faith. If my mind tells me that as a human being I am a creation and that every creation must have a Creator, than my intellect and consciousness bring me to God and I have to follow my consciousness.
Those who not behave likewise are unreasonable?
Yes, unbelievers are unreasonable because negation of God and soul is madness. The Bible says that a mindless person does not have God!
What do you think about ecumenism promoted by pope John Paul II?
The Pope follows the example of Christ in praying for the unity of all believers. That is a Biblical and positive idea, but it is unsuitable for our situation.
Why?
I am against ecumenism in Croatian circumstances. Only we, Catholics, support ecumenism in this region, while neither Eastern Orthodox, nor Muslims, nor Jews support it. A proof for that is a recent ecumenical gathering held in Zagreb, where Dr. Ivo Goldstein attacked us Catholics, us Croats, accused us for Jasenovac and all sorts of possible and impossible crimes. They should stop blabbering about Jasenovac. Once and for all.
He did not attack anyone. He expressed his opinion, to which he is entitled, isn't he?
Thank you very much! At the same gathering, Sefko Omerbasic made a claim so stupid that it has no precedent.
What was it?
That Islam has existed in this region since 9th century, rather than coming with the Turks in the 15th century. Therefore, we Catholics invite them to ecumenical gatherings to talk about present and future, about cooperation between religions, and they go to the distant past and lecture us using forgeries. Sefko Omerbasic's claims are simply silly and lies, but none of the historians and academicians has appeared to deny them. That silence of Croat historians is a great shame. Because of that, I propose, if what Mr. Sefko Omerbasic claims is true, that he be appointed to the Academy, and if that isn't true and not a single historian has made such claims so far, and our historians and academicians are silent after such a forgery, than all of them should be given the title of efendi [Islamic dignitary].
Why are you angry with Jews?
I am angry because of Goldstein and Zuroff who in different occasions take shots at us Croats. Who gives Jews the right to decide how many righteous people [individuals who helped save Jews from Nazis in WWII] there are among Croats. It is not true that there are only 78 righteous among Croats. On the contrary, there were only 78 evil individuals among Croats, while all the remaining seven million Croats were righteous. My father was a righteous person, and my mother in Sarajevo assisted Jews as much as she could. She carried them food. We Croats are a nation of righteous and saintly people.
Jasenovac is a fact that no one normal can be proud of?
I am not proud of it. However, that fact is very problematic. It could be heard at the trial to Dinko Sakic that Jasenovac was a work camp. What lawyer Cedo Prodanovic said, that the goal of Jasenovac was genocide, is a lie. I claim that not a single Serb went to jail, and especially not to Jasenovac, because he was a Serb, an Eastern Orthodox Christian.
What do you thin about the fact that president Tudman fought against NDH?
It is normal that as an antifascist he was against. I am not defending NDH. I only want the truth about Jasenovac and other things to be known. Instead data are forged and Serbs persistently claim that 700,000 people were killed in Jasenovac. The number of innocent civilians murdered on every bridge over the Drina by Serbs is larger than the number of Serbs who perished in Jasenovac.
Shouldn't we leave that to historians, rather than politicians?
I agree, but if historians dealt with Jasenovac and told the truth about it, that would change everything. The myth about Jasenovac would be destroyed.
When we talked about ecumenism, you mentioned religious sects. It seems you are opposed to their activities. Why?
Religious sects are slashing and burning Croatia today. The state does not have laws to be informed about their activities. Most of the sects are coming from the US, while recently more of them have been coming from Asia. They are destroying 14 centuries old civilization and culture of catholic Croatia. Is there any connection between fourteen centuries old Catholicism of Croats, Mormons, Jehova's Witnesses or sects from Asia? These sects are led by American maniacs, psychopaths or Asian swindlers. Huge funds are invested in that. They go door to door, from a sick person to a sick person and rape. That is not missionary work and conversion. What they do can only be called raping of Croats. For now, the Croatian state is helplessly observing activities of some 40 sects that have attacked Croats.
What do you think should be done about that?
We Croats have been Catholics for fourteen centuries and should remain Catholics, live in our Catholic faith and hold on to our Catholic Church.
What about those who do not want that, or want to join one of the sects? Should they have the right to do so?
They have the right to do so, but not in the way they practice. They are waging a real war and seducing people. We must make a distinction between traditional and historic faiths and sects that were founded yesterday. For me, they are a real conspiracy against the real Catholic Church. What do we need sects for? We have our Catholic faith.
What kind of conspiracy are you talking about?
That is a conspiracy of international strongmen who established various sects in order to destroy the Catholic Church. Who founded these sects? How come all of them are based in America and Asia? Why isn't a single of the founders of these sects a theologian? America has about 300 sects. Is that dear to God? Jesus did not establish two, five, or ten churches, but only one and the one that has Peter, and that is our, Catholic Church. Therefore, if I have the true, Jesus' faith, and I do, then I do not need a different faith established by some psychopath.
It is well known that you sing praises to president Tudman. Why?
I praise him because he deserves to be praised. After 800 years he brought back our Croatian pride, he awakened dormant national consciousness and gave us back our state. Therefore, Franjo Tudman should be credited with all of that.
Are you still a member of HDZ?
I am and I am proud of that.
Your party hasn't been doing well recently, has it?
We will again win, regardless. HDZ must win.
Why?
Because HDZ is a guarantee of safe, peaceful and free Croatia.
What about other parties? Are they anti-Croatian?
They are not anti-Croatian, but are not very pro-Croatian either. In 1990, only Franjo Tudman and HDZ advocated independent Croatia.
What about the others?
They were for Croatia, but within Yugoslavia.
94 percent of citizens who participated in the referendum regarding the independence of Croatia voted for the independence. You are not suggesting that all of them were members or supporters of HDZ?
The referendum came later, not in 1990.
If the people did not want an independent state and had not various events turned out the way they did, neither Tudman nor anyone else could have established an independent state.
The people had to be led. It needed a leader. A nation without a leader is like a flock without a shepherd. Tudman was the right leader at the right time.
What would have happened if someone else, for example Vlado Gotovac, was in Tudman's place?
There would be no independent Croatian state! Never!
He does not want Croatia even today. He is against Croatia.
Why do say that?
His political party is not Croatian, but only a Liberal Party. He erased Croatian from its name.
That is really a huge and inexcusable "sin"?
Why does not he say that his political party is Croatian?
You are questioning his dedication to the Croat cause, although he was imprisoned because of it?
He was not in prison because of Croatianism [i.e. Croatian nationalism].
What was he in jail for then?
Because of philosophical opposition to Marxism.
Therefore you have doubts about Gotovac's dedication to Croatia?
Definitely! And more than doubts: he proved that he is not a Croat by naming his political party just the Liberal Party, rather than the Croat Liberal Party. His party is a cosmopolitan party and its members and supporters are not Croats.
You can't stand liberals, can you?
Definitely not. Moreover, as a Christian and a Catholic I am an opponent of liberals and their ideology because it is the root of Communism.
Communism is gone, while Liberalism is getting stronger all the time?
No it is not getting stronger. But they are plotting in our country. However, as soon as they show their real intentions, they loose popular support.
In that case, you dislike Drazen Budisa as well, since he is also a liberal?
He is a Croat liberal [Budisa's party is named the Croatian Social Liberal Party] and therefore I like him better than Gotovac.
Whose liberal is Gotovac then?
He is a cosmopolitan liberal.
You are sure that HDZ will win in the coming elections?
Hundred percent sure!
Polls indicate otherwise?
All polls are rigged and a lie.
Even those commissioned by HDZ? They haven't been publishing their results lately.
HDZ will not win because it is HDZ but because HDZ is Croatia. There is no difference between HDZ and Croatia. Therefore, Croatia and the Croat people will win. They and HDZ are one and the same.
Therefore HDZ equals people, HDZ equals Croatia. You consider this to be a normal, democratic kind of thinking?
That is the sort of thinking that is characteristic of a man who loves Croatia and who spent ten years in jail during the former Yugoslavia for his love for Croatia.
One leader, one party - some would call that totaliarianism?
I support the rule of the people. If the people wants to have only one political party, then that is the will of the people.
What if the people rejects HDZ? Would you respect its will?
The Croat people wants HDZ because it is smart. You journalists and politicians do not have intuition, but the Croat people does and its intuition, popular and Croatian, will tell it to give its votes to HDZ. I am million percent confident that we will witness yet another magnificent victory of HDZ. True, it must be said that this will be the most difficult victory so far, but that makes it even more magnificent.
Why?
Because all forces of evil have united against HDZ and my dear and beloved president Tudman. Yellow, enemy, and anti-Croatian press, has been force feeding the people with stories about looting. Looting, looting, thieves all and everywhere, and all that in order to cheat the people and overthrow HDZ and destroy Croatia.
Therefore, "enemies" of all sorts have united and there is no looting nor has there ever been any looting in this country?
Not even close to what the press claims to be the case. If there is looting, anyone can report the case to the state prosecutor. Besides the party (HDZ) which buries hated Yugoslavia and achieved centuries long dream of Croats, our independent state, waged a war that was imposed on it and won it, and now leads the rebuilding of the country, has the right to make mistakes.
What is the use of a report to the state prosecutor, when at the moment it takes five, six and more years to prosecute cases?
That is not true. In credible cases, the state reacts immediately.
Therefore, the rule of law is working in Croatia?
It is working wherever Croat patriots are in power. It is not working wherever Communists are in power.
How come? Don't they control numerous media, including probably the most important, state TV station HTV?
Please, HDZ does not own any media, nor does it control any. The Opposition controls the media. I cannot get an appearance on TV and all sorts of Communist scum can be seen on TV screens every evening. Give me an example of a pro-HDZ newspaper?
You'd be really upset if SDP won?
That is impossible! The Croat people is smart enough not to allow to be bitten by the same Communist snake twice!
SDP is now a modern, democratic party?
Today, they only have a different name, but that is all the same gang, Communists, whose leaders murdered half a million of Croats, expelled a million Croats all over the world, and sentenced hundreds of thousands of Croats to long prison terms.
However, most of HDZ's members are former Communists?
That is not surprising, since HDZ was the party of Croatian reconciliation. It does not matter who was a Communist, but what matters is whether he does or does not love Croatia. If someone was a Communist, but worked for, fought for and loves Croatia, he is good for me and I accept him in the spirit of the reconciliation of all Croats initiated by president Tudman.
You dislike even more the former president of the Croatian Helsinki Committee (HHO) for human rights, Ivan Zvonimir Cicak. Why?
He is digging a grave for my contemporary Croatia.
Because he fights for human rights?
What human rights? He is fighting for human rights of all possible enemies of Croatia. Why does not he fights for Croat human rights?
Isn't he fighting for human rights in Croatia?
He is fighting for human rights of Chetniks [Serbs], Communist scum and Mojahedeen [Bosniaks-Muslims]!
Why are you bothered by HHO and similar organizations?
All such organizations are terrorist organizations!
That is a serious accusation?
HHO is a "public prosecutor" of Croatia and its only goal is to continuously attack, slander and spit on Croatia abroad. They are servants of those who finance them and that it that. Therefore, they are the enemies of Croatia.
Therefore, according to you, there are no violations of human rights in Croatia?
The Croatian state and Croatian authorities are not violating anyone's human rights. There is no place in the world with more freedom. Even Chetniks are coming back and as victors. They have more protection than bears in Lika!
They are coming back because they are Croatian citizens?
They destroyed and left Croatia. They hate Croatia even now and are coming back without repentance. I am against forgiveness.
I would, I would forgive everyone, but not in the manner practiced by the Croatian state and Church, without a receipt. The State and the Church made an anti-Biblical action by forgiving Serbs before they, first, repented for their aggression and crimes, second, requested a forgiveness for their sins and, third, paid reparations. When they repent, promise they won't commit crimes in the future and pay reparations, then and only then I will forgive them.
Isn't it natural that the Church forgives?
It is not natural that the Church forgives without a receipt. The Church must follow the Bible.
But, this is a modern Church, especially if one considers archbishop Bozanic.
There is no modern church. Jesus Christ does not change overnight. From the start, there was the same Jesus, the same Church, the same Bible, the same Holy Gospel as today. Even today, the Church uses the same sacraments as Jesus Christ.
What do you think about Gotovac's idea that there are two churches, one modern represented by archbishop Bozanic, and other conservative and backward, represented by bishop Jezerinac?
That is the old Partisan rule: "divide and rule!" That is an attempt to split the Church, and archbishop Bozanic and bishop Jezerinac have identical opinions and feelings, that is one and the same Church. Only former Communist scum, liberals, and masons can say stuff like that.
Gotovac was not in the Communist party?
He is a mason, and that is the same.
Where did you get that information?
All liberals are masons!
Therefore, all those who criticize HDZ and president Tudman are the enemies of Croatia?
They are not criticizing Tudman because of his faults and defects but because he is an invincible fort of Croatiandom. They are trying to overthrow Tudman and HDZ because they want to destroy Croatia. However, all those who have united in this goal will fail in their dirty and inimical intentions because the Croat people, while led by Tudman, is invincible.
Recently, you said you would send Fr. Bono Sagi [a liberal Croat Catholic theologian] to jail?
That is correct.
Why?
He criticized Tudman for using the phrase "with God's assistance!". His commentary was "Do not invoke the name of God in vain!" That is wicked.
Why?
Tudman says that with respect and religious zeal, the way ancient Croats used to say. The president, as a historian, took a sentence which is in the soul of our people, and now that mason...
So he is a mason as well?
Yes.
And he should be sent to jail?
What's wrong with jails? I've been in prison four times and look at me, I am alive and kicking. He wasn't in jail during comrade Tito's rule, and all true priests were persecuted and jailed under Communists.
You've said you'd reopen the camp on the island of Goli Otok [Barren Isle, used as a camp for Tito's opponents]?
There are so many thieves, destroyers of the Croatian state and national criminals that today, in order to save Croatia, the time is ripe for a new camp on the island of Goli Otok. Croatia should be protected from those who are digging its grave. For example, I'd immediately send Cicak to that camp. But that camp would make sense only if I were its commander.
You would also send a lot of journalists to the camp?
I would! Why not? But that jail would not function like present Tudman's prisons. They are more like hotels than like prisons.
What would that camp be like under your command?
I'd run it the way it was run during Tito's rule, although many of you still eulogize him.
Who eulogizes Tito?
Almost all journalists from the leftist opposition. Which scandal tabloid wrote about Tito as a bandit, criminal, thief; Tito who murdered half a million of Croats!? Anti-Croatian and yellow press does not write about that, but it instead incessantly attacks and slanders Tudman. I do not oppose criticism, but slander and work against Croatia, regardless whether press, political parties or organization such as HHO are concerned. Just look at the photograph of president Tudman recently published by Jutarnji List on its front page. No one can convince me that that was not a deliberate act. Our of probably thirty photos they published the one in which he makes a very unfortunate facial expression, as if he were imitating Mussolini. Was that by chance? No way!
You seem to be very troubled by, as you refer to it, yellow press. You filed a suit against Nacional. Have you sued any other papers?
Against all journalists from the yellow press. I am winning, but... Look, I also sued your Zlatko Gall.
What did he do to upset you?
He compared me with a movement for breeding of bloodthirsty American pitt-bulls. Therefore, for him, Croats are the same as dogs. The judge, who is now named Majerovic, but used to be named Mayer, therefore a former Jew, acquitted Gall. I appealed, but the District Court confirmed the sentence. The judge in that case was named Lepa Singer [i.e. probably also of Jewish origin].
Is it not more important whether judges follow the laws than what their names are?
Why did they not sentence Gall according to the law? Instead they acquitted him.
You have also accused lawyer Vesna Alaburic in the similar manner?
I did not accuse her. I only said she was a Serb, while no one knew that. People should know who is slashing and burning these days in our courts.
No, but why does she always defend those who are against Croatia? Why did not she defend me, rather than Gall? Why did not she demand that Gall be sentenced because he attacked me for my struggle to increase the number of Croats?
If you asked her, maybe she would have defended you?
I am certain that she would not have! Croatia is here, but a war is constantly being waged against her. Croatia is in a state of war. Guns and machine guns are not shooting any more, but the pens of journalists are. That is the real state of war.
There should be more order among journalists?
They should all be sent to jail. Especially your Feral Tribune.
What's wrong with Feral?
Do you know where Feral's editors are?
In Split?
No, they are in Belgrade!
Really?
Yes, because that paper is an official mouthpiece of the Belgrade counterintelligence service.
They could sue you for what you just said.
Let them sue me! They are destroying the Croatian state. Their goal is to say and prove: look Croats, after 800 years you finally have your state. And what did you get? Shit! You and you leaders that is all one huge... Therefore, because of that they are in direct service of the Serbian counterintelligence service. They should be sent to jail before anyone else. Nacional also...
Whole editorial boards should be sent to jail?
All those who with lies and slanders are undermining Croatia should be sent to jail in order to save Croatia!
What about Jutarnji List, Vecernji List, Novi List?
I call Jutarnji List Yugo Newspaper. [George] Soros gave them DM5 million to start Jutarnji List and it has only one task: to overthrow HDZ and bring SDP to power. If my Croat people does not realize that and continues to be naive, that will happen. Novi List usually allows both sides of every issue to be heard, but it is too early to do that, without further explanations.
Therefore, no criticism of the authorities and president Tudman should be published? That would be real and good journalism?
You are confusing important issues. Critical journalism is allowed, but only if it provides positive criticism, rather than destructive criticism. I support positive criticism, but am resolutely against those whose only goal is to destroy Tudman, HDZ and thereby the Croatian state. To my great fortune, they will fail in that because the Croat people is aware of the trap prepared for it by some and their dishonorable intentions.
How did your suit against Nacional end?
It had a sad ending! Nacional lost everything, put they did not pay. That also confirms that Croatia is too democratic. It allows too much freedom. For example, Nacional lost 200,000 Kuna [=$28,600], and even the Supreme Court confirmed the sentence, and Ivo Pukanic [editor-in-chief of Nacional] said that he would not pay a single penny to Bakovic. I do not know how that matter will end, but that is all sad.
The Tribunal in the Hague has been a hot topic recently. What do you think about its work?
How do you suggest we do that, since if we do not fulfill our obligations and Western demands, they will impose sanctions against Croatia?
God, may you give a new life to Croatia with sanctions!
Therefore, you are hoping that sanctions will be imposed?
Why am I not afraid of sanctions, and why do I see in them a chance for a rebirth and renewal of Croatia? First, there will be no imports, which is today a huge damnation for Croatia. Europe works better and produces cheaper products than Croatia. That is common knowledge and Europe would "eat" us. The only salvation is to close the door to Europe. We have beautiful, rich, and sunny Croatia and we can live without Europe!
Then, we shall find prosperity in isolationism. You think that Croatia can survive on its own?
Of course she can. I would be afraid of sanctions only if the sun stopped rising, if it stopped raining, and if my Croat hen, as I like to say in jest, stopped laying Croat eggs. I am not afraid of sanctions because our economy would start working and growing. There will be growth in industry, farming and growth of employment. Today everyone is trying to import more goods, and our factories are going bankrupt.
You do not find it relevant that sanctions would be disastrous for the future of Croatia?
We would do fine under sanctions. Just look at the Serbs! They have been under sanctions for years and what's wrong with them? Nothing! What's wrong with Chine, Iraq or other countries that live under sanctions? Nothing! There's nothing wrong with them. They live in freedom, nicely and prosper! Sanctions should not be feared and we must at some point tell that wicked Western Europe and to America that we are not afraid of sanctions and that we can live without their assistance. And I an sure that we can live well!