Vuk Obradovic, the president of Social Democratic Party, presidential candidate in the last elections in Serbia, entered the public life as "the youngest general of the Yugoslav Peoples Army". A conversation with him confirms that NATO missiles have turned everything in Serbia upside down: while politicians gladly discuss military strategy and successes of the Yugoslav Army, "the youngest general" presfers to stick to the efforts to end this war. Obradovic refers to the interest of the country and principles. We recall that because of principles in 1992 he ended his promissing military career.
Reporter: What do you, as a soldier and politician, think about the war in FRY?
Obradovic: Social Democratic Party has always advocated avoidance of the conflict with the International Community. We warned that such a war would be without precedent, with many human, material and other victims. The events so far have confirmed all of that. The consequences of the NATO aggression are becoming more severe every day. Our country is in total isolation, both political and military. Unfortunately, it appears that there are still some people in Serbia who do not understand the consequences of all of that.
What is the true goal of the NATO attacks on FRY?
NATO started this intervention with the intention to force our authorities to sign the Rambouillet Agreement. I agree that that agreement was very unfavorable to FRY, because it took Kosovo and Metohija out of the political and legal framework of our country. However, much of that could have been improved with appropriate cooperation with the International Community and the readiness to seek a compromise. That would have been much better than what has happened since. I fear that the NATO aggression can result in something even worse than what we had with the unsigned agreement from Rambouillet, because their goals have evolved in the meantine.
What are we to do then?
The key is to start a strong peace offensive on all fronts: political, diplomatic, humanitarian, ethical, even military. I am convinced that it is our national and state interest to stop this war, to establish conditions for the contiuation of the peace process and the beginning of reconstruction. That implies active attitude towards the defense of the country, but that is not enough. If we can contribute that the war lasts only a minute less than it would otherwise, we will fulfill our basic patriotic duty.
Daily we can hear predictions that a NATO ground troops invasion is imminent. Would the chances of the Yugoslav Army (VJ) be better in the ground troop invasion than they are now?
At the moment, we are fighting an invisible opponent. That is a conflict with their rockets and aircraft which fly at high altitude. I am impressed with the performance of my colleagues from the Anti Aircraft Defense and Air Force so far. We must do everything to avoid the ground troops invasion because NATO is planning for that. Regardless of what they say, it is certain that they have plans for a ground troops invasion. Such a conflict would be a catastrophe in every conceiveble way, even for NATO, because in that situation they would fight against an invisible opponent. Their soldiers would be shot at from every bush and every house.
You didn't say in which case VJ has greater chances?
I refuse to talk about a winner and looser in this conflict. There can be no winner in this war. Yugoslavia has suffered enormous losses already. The International Community is also bound to loose because the factors of international integration had already been endangered. That would be a bloody conflict with numerous casualties. Even if someone won in the end, that would be a Pyrrhic victory. I have enough responsibility to avoid such militaristic zeal.
According to some theories, a ground troops invasion will be limited to Kosovo, while other argue that Belgrade will be attacked from the north from Hungary. What is more likely?
NATO generals have certainly prepared several options for their attack. When a few months ago, I participated at a meeting in Berlin, where European integrations were discussed, former German Foreign Affairs Minister Klaus Kinkel told me that NATO had even developed a plan which assumes that at some point Russia will respond with nuclear strikes. Therefore they are prepared even for WWIII. All options are possible. The ground troop invasion could start from Albania, Macedonia, from the north or west, from all sides.
All at the same time?
I refuse to think about that. All my efforts right now are directed towards trying to stop the war and making sure that none of that happens.
You claim that in a war diplomacy is more important than military prowess. Can you comment on the behavior of Washington and Belgrade?
We are inert on the foreign policy front and some of our moves are irresponsible and clumsy. Just consider the language used in our media and even by some of our diplomats. I've always supported Milos Obrenovic's attitude. It is always possible to state a most damning condemnation, while avoiding unnecessary harshness and irritation. I believe that the language used by the media and politicians, organization of popular protests and other actions, we are bringing at least 10 extra missiles daily on our heads.
You've condemned the human shields on bridges. Why?
I am trying to understand the motives of the organizers of such gatherings, but I cannot figure out how someone can toy with human lives like that. We are facing an unbelievably cruel opponent which targets typically civilian objects. They destroyed the RTS building although there were 100 people in it at the time. They destroyed Zezelj's bridge in Novi Sad although a concert had been organised on the bridge. They hit [the car factory in] Kragujevac and some one hundred people were hurt there. Someone convinced these people to be there.
You say there were "convinced". Do you think that people participate in human shields on bridges and factories voluntarily or because someone forces them to do that?
Not all of them, of course. But I know of examples where people were send to participate in human shields as a part of their work obligations.
Can you be more specific?
There are a lot of them. People are simply told that as a part of their work obligation they need to be at a certain public function. In some companies, but it does not really matter. You're a journalist, make some effort and find out which companies do that.
Well, I am trying right now. Who tells them that?
Directors and other powerful figures.
Let us go back to diplomacy. What is your view of the behavior of the US administration?
There is no doubt that the US behave like the center and the masters of the world. I could criticize their behavior for three hours. But what's the use? It's high time to understand that we, Serbs, cannot change the world, because it is the way it is. The justice which many invoke is very frequently plain fiction in this world. Every wise politician would in such circumstances try to understand the situation and favorably position the interests of our country within the existing framework of world relations.
In that case, would you agree that the Serbian government's hope in Russian assistance is baseless?
Every support is priceless, including the support we have received from Russia. However, I have always advocated self-reliance as a strategy. No one will sacrifice their interests on our behalf. No one cares too much about somebody else's troubles and tears. There are many who would like to make profit from them. Russians will help as much as they can, but I do not think they can do much, because they are also in a lot of trouble.
I was referring to the military assistance?
Please, I do not want to discuss the continuation of the war.
But, neither of us knows when the war will finish.
My party and myself are doing all in our power to bring about a quick end of this war. I believe that the war will end fairly soon. It is difficult to say exactly how soon, because that will also depend on us, on our readiness to compromise and courageously enter peace initiatives.
In your opinion, what will happen with the Serbian political scene after the war?
It will be far less confusing than today. During this war, many politicians showed their true colors. It is now clearer which policies have future and which don't. It is even much clearer which politicians are really in opposition and which aren't. I expect an improvement in every way. All disasters have a silver lining. I expect the same to apply to this war.
Which policies have future?
If you analyze the behavior of political parties in Serbia, you'll see who supported what. All of those who advocated peaceful solution to the Kosmet crisis, who persisted in their efforts to stop the war, who were against the breaking of relations with developed countries in spite of the catastrophe which has befallen us, have passed the muster. The others failed. They will have no trouble in recognizing themselves.
On the other hand, they criticize your lukewarm condemnation of the aggression?
That is not true. We have consistently condemned everything done by NATO. Even before the war, we warned that a military intervention would be a huge mistake. We sent a letter to all social-democratic parties in the world and pleaded with them to help us halt this senseless aggression. That is undeniable, but it is also the fact that all of that is only a part of the truth. The other part of the truth has to do with us and our readiness to do everything in our power to halt the aggression. Maybe, you expected that we use words like criminals, pigs, bastards etc. Well, you'll never hear anything like that from us. Not because we cannot say something like that but because that is counterproductive and against the interests of our people.
Parties from the Alliance for Changes were accused of the lack of patriotism. The people who had recently travelled to Washington, including yourself, were singled out for especially harsh criticism.
Is it unpatriotic to try to protect the people from such fatal consequences? Which trip to Washington? Dear madam, I spent two days in Washington in my whole life. In those two days I met about 70 American officials. I was also at the Pentagon and told my colleagues that any armed intervention would have fatal consequences, that Kosovo and Metohija are a specific region, that the war will likely spread to the neighboring countries, that it won't go as they imagined.
What was their reaction?
The officers at the Pentagon said, and I quote from memory, the following: "No one in this building is for the military intervention". However, as they said, "some officials accross the river disagree". They were talking about the people from the US administration. This war, as all other wars, was started by politicians, not soldiers. Soldiers only fulfil their obligations with more or less success.
Do you think that the current unity of all political parties in Serbia will last?
It is impossible to talk on the one hand about the lack of patriotism, and on the other hand about high degree of political unity. I think that the people are united, but not around a single personality or a political party. The people are united on the platform of the struggle for the defense of freedom, independence, territorial integrity, honor and dignity of all citizens of FRY. Because of that, no one has the right to toy with the patriotic feelings of the people, nor to classify the people into patriots and traitors.
Do you think that the current unity will be long lasting?
Once we return to normal life and politics, it will be natural that particular interests can be articulated in different ways. I look forward to that time.
The public trusts you as a proven patriot. How should a real patriot behave in these conditions, especially if he or she is politically active?
We need to work harder and better. In current circumstances I am fulfilling my patriotic duties by assisting the members of the party and our supporters to find their their bearings in this darkness. Immediately before the start of the war, we printed 200,000 leaflets with instructions about the behavior during the intervention and distributed them to the citizens. Even now, there is always someone on duty in the party offices. We are doing all in our power to bring the world back to its senses.
What is your vision of Serbia after the war?
A few days ago I talked to the prime minister of the republic of Srpska, Milorad Dodik and he told me: "Vuk, once the bombing stops, you'll realize what had happened. That's when the real problems will start." We will not be able to reconstruct the country without the assistance from the developed countries. We must take that into account.
Where will the assistance come from?
From those who can offer it. Certanily not from Belarus, the country which is already in a difficult economic situation. Let us get realistic and stop spreading illusions; let us think primarily about ourselves and our own interests. We must get out of the world of illusions. That is our basic obligation.
It seems that that is one of their goals.
Do you see anyone among the Serbian politicians who would accept to take his place if NATO deposed Milosevic by force?
I am not hoping for such an event. I wish that a direly needed democratic breakthrough in Serbia is achieved by democratic means.
What will happen with Milosevic after the war?
His responsibility for everything that has happened is huge. Obviously, as the president of Yugoslavia, he is the most responsible individual for all of this. I expect that a democratic breakthrough in Serbia will take place very soon after the end of the war. Democratic forces in Serbia have been suppressed primarily because of the reduced opportunities for communication with the public. I believe that this is a short term development. I belive that in the near future, as soon as the bombing stops, new opportunities for the affirmation of the democratic potentials will open up.