by Ljiljana SMAJLOVIC
NIN: Ms. Kandic, has fear changed the side in Serbia?
KANDIC: The fear that the police will break in, confiscate documentation, that important data will disappear, is gone. That fear has disappeared. During the election campaign we were forced to hide our documentation in a safe place. I think that the authorities will never again have such power, such force at their disposal and such attitude towards civilian society or anyone at all. They will never again confiscate documents and burst into offices.
Also, the police behavior is now different. In my opinion, that has nothing to do with the authorities and everything to do with the citizens. On October 5, the Police was for the first time scared of the masses. Finally, someone scared the Police.
Until October 5 it was enough to tell to a policemen, even a traffic policemen, "human rights" to become suspicious and be classified as an enemy. Now, if you say "human rights", they do not feel confident enough to immediately label you in that way. I see that change especially when crossing the border between Serbia and Kosovo. Earlier, when I referred to the law, that provoked derision. Last time, last week, I was in a car with two Albanians, and when we tried to pass at the crossing where the Police otherwise do not allow the Albanians from Kosovo to pass, they went to their prefab, phoned, came back and said "Go!"
You are talking about rights of us who in some way opposed the previous regime, and the rights of Albanians who have in the past been the object of your protection. I am interested whether you feel some urge to protect the rights of some new groups of endangered individuals?
As I very well know the old authorities, I also know the new authorities, or the former opposition. A proof that nothing has substantially changed is the communication I received today from the Ministry of Justice. I requested to visit prisoners regarding the allegations that force had been used in a police intervention. The Ministry rejected my request with the following justification: they will first check the allegations and then, once they check them, they will consider my request and decide whether to allow me to visit a prison or not. Such a letter was sent by Minister Subasic and his deputy Zoran Stevanovic, which indicates that they represent an institution that does not know how to behave in the new circumstances in which we have publicly declared democratic authorities. That means that they have obligations to respect some human rights standards. One of these standards is to provide conditions for non-governmental organizations to conduct unimpeded oversight of the respect for human rights.
I would like to know whether in the new situation you've observed some new human rights violations, violations of human rights of persons who were previously protected? Zivko Sokolovacki said on the TV that Milovan Bojic's nine-year-old daughter had her hair cut off by force at her school. Branislav Ivkovic said that Milorad Komrakov's children were told to stay at home for a while, that the school director and teachers told the parents that it was better for the children to stay at home for a while, until the other kids understood the situation... Have you heard of these examples? Do they cause concern?
I haven't heard of the examples you've just mentioned. I heard that someone attacked Ivkovic and that there were certain attempts. I used to know a lawyer who lives in the same apartment building as Ivkovic and I asked him to go and check on them. He did and said: "Had I heard for such an example, I would have been the first one to react."
Your acquaintance told you that there were no attacks on October 5?
That happened at the beginning of the campaign. As far as I know, Ivkovic was protected by his neighbors during the October 5 attack.
I asked them to personally check whether some people really banged on doors and exerted pressure. They told me that there was none of that. But I immediately checked and did not hear about anything. Although one must admit that the media, especially the media that refer to themselves as "liberated" are trying to outdo each other in writing as badly as possible about the former authorities.
Your Fund is famous for its field research?
There is no time for that. We have been monitoring media for almost a month to see what is different; therefore, the general tone is different since October 5.
What prompted you to carry out that analysis? Those attacks on people in the newspapers, do they indicate a lack of human, elementary respect for others, or does that include elements of political persecution?
I've never before had a chance to appear on TV Novi Sad. They've invited me twice and the first time there was a bomb threat so that the program was canceled. Out of 45 calls by the viewers (the questions are written down by a secretary and brought on strips of paper into the studio) not a single one was neutral or a request for an explanation of some sort. All the questions were actually accusations. Then, the audience requested that I do not be the central guest in the program, but that I face people with opposing political views. The TV organized a program and the other two guests were Oliver Ivanovic and Vuko Antonijevic. Again I was accused of preventing the distinguished guests from expressing their views, of again hijacking the program, of interrupting everyone. Again there were more than 50 questions, exclusively for me.
In the past I was able to speak out in a small number of media and sometimes my words were carried by a certain media that have a very specific and even critical audience, but always as arguments. However, with the opening of the official media, we actually have a simulation of free media that are then used for baseless attacks. Even the viewers are selected. There is no possibility that someone who could ask a concrete question to have something explained or clarified call in.
Are you trying to say that you were ambushed?
That tells us what we got when certain TV stations put on their screens those words "we have been liberated". They are even not capable of hiding their true thoughts. During these wars we had different liberated territories, if you recall, we had ruins in those territories, we had murdered people in those territories, we had land without population. Similarly, subconsciously, they articulated their thinking very well, although that statement is horrifying. Now, it turns out that the events are not exactly the same as in those previously liberated territories, but they are not trying to apply their forces to developing a new interested public opinion that would ask, be interested in finding out, and will criticize using arguments, but are instead developing a negative, unconstructive public opinion. The politicians do not articulate that unconstructive criticism, or so to speak, that attack on certain personalities. Instead appropriate public opinion is being created.
How does that media analysis fit in in the activities of the Humanitarian Law Fund?
The freedom of media is a very important right. The freedom of media and the right to objective information.
Nevertheless, I am surprised that in this tempestuous "post-revolutionary situation", now that the media are liberated, you see the right to information as one of the most endangered in the society?
Media reflect very relevant political events related to human rights. On TV and thanks to the media we could see that president Kostunica amnestied Flora Brovina. We could see that State Security Service head was standing next to Flora Brovina, although we, Otpor, have demanded that he be held accountable, not that he resign, but to be held accountable and investigated for possible crimes because of well founded suspicion that he is involved in some serious crimes. Next to them, we saw representatives of a non-governmental organization.
Human rights are in these moments absolutely ephemeral. We have just released a report about Otpor that offered a lot of data and arguments to the competent state institutions, including the prosecutor's office.
We held a press conference, a round table discussion and with very convincing evidence demanded that the former Police Minister and Secret Service heads be prosecuted.
To what extent do you see the election victory of Vojislav Kostunica against Slobodan Milosevic as your own? Are human rights today more popular than ten or twelve years ago?
I have an exceptional experience, which is at the same time very dear to me and very bitter. It is bitter in the part which actually most accurately portrays us, citizens. From euphoria with Otpor members and Otpor we reached the situation in which people were afraid to display Otpor symbols or put up posters. That's us, the citizens of Serbia! That's what we looked like in the election campaign. We then followed what was going on with Otpor and I considered it to be not only my professional obligation, but also my political choice, to support their campaign. They could not openly conduct a campaign. The only participants in their round-table discussions were the Humanitarian Law Fund, Petar Lukovic, Teofil Pancic and the dismissed judge Radmila Dragicevic, because no one else dared participate due to danger. It is true that only Otpor was a Police target.
Their and my message was to vote for Kostunica. Kostunica hasn't been discredited in our political public, he never changed his views or negotiated with the authorities, he never made any deals with the authorities. Those were the arguments I could freely say, because I considered them to be true.
Will the Fund be a thorn in the side of the new authorities?
As far as the Fund and myself are concerned, we were indeed a thorn in the side of the previous regime.
Our new authorities ought to learn how to cooperate with the non-governmental organizations, as well as that the fact that someone is an official does not mean a thing unless that person does everything to ensure the functioning of the institutions in the interest of the citizens. I already see that problem because representatives of the authorities do not have that knowledge. They think that they are entitled to assess everything, that they know everything and do not need anyone who could offer different data. Or, if someone gives them certain data they immediately see that as something negative, because they are averse to criticism. They have been elected. They were elected in a democratic election and now no one is allowed to criticize, I see big problems there but, naturally, I know that I am a big fighter, and if I managed to get hold of the other lot, I'm sure I will be able to deal with the new authorities as well.
These days we've been receiving hundreds of calls from people seeking assistance, which demonstrates that our standing in the public has improved. These hundreds of people are seeking protection of human rights. This is a new trend, since October 5. Different people approach us, refugees, prisoners and former prison inmates. However, it is important that, for example, many policemen have contacted us.
You've said recently that you're bothered that the newly liberated media still write about "the glorious Serbian Army" and the Serbian Police that "prevented the occupation of the country". The Serbian policemen are still dying in clashes with armed Albanians. How should one write about that?
During the last two years I was in the position to see grotesque moves of the former regime as far as the police guarding the border between Serbia and Kosovo is concerned.
People who had fought in Kosovo were stationed on the border. A policeman who had fought, was supposed to check documents of Albanians on the border, some of whom they may had fought against or expelled or what not. That regime was impossible because it deliberately tried to extend that pathology. That pathology was even noticed by the local Serbs. The Serbs from Presevo and Bujanovac, where there are many of them, stress that the Police maltreats everyone, regardless of nationality.
Now, regarding the situation in Presevo, there are two issues. It is obvious and no one is arguing against that, although our authorities sometimes cannot make up their mind, that armed Albanian formations are stationed there, the same Kosovo Liberation Army which previously existed in Kosovo.
The first attempt to resolve that problem seemed very good. Therefore, to use diplomacy and find a solution together with the KFOR and international community. I think that that is the best route. Then, the authorities began to repeat that it seemed that the KFOR did not support the young democracy in Serbia. Therefore, they make a few good steps and then again fall back on old rhetoric.
The problem with Presevo and Bujanovac cannot be resolved without the participation of the international community because it is an international problem, but a problem that is taking place here.
The authorities must be careful about one thing. They cannot use Frenki's Boys down there. In my opinion they should not be stationed anywhere. They've been accused of so many things and we have to find out the truth about them. When I saw them in Bujanovac, with their little hats and in hummers, I had the impression that they were in Kosovo. I saw the way the local policemen looked at them. I also saw that the ordinary people were afraid of them.
Our public does not accept it at face value that all people who here fight for human rights do that because of they are idealists. Here people rather cynically believe that many of them, you've heard the expression, are anti-war profiteers.
I think that no one ever dared say something like that for me.
That is correct. Your personal courage is highly respected and no one has ever questioned your sincere convictions. However, you're also known for your loud expression of political views that leave the arena of human rights struggle. These views were in some key moments of our recent history radically different from the general understanding of certain issues. You also didn't sign the appeal of the independent Yugoslav intellectuals against the bombardment.
That appeal seemed futile to me. That was the appeal by people who did not dare say one correct thing. I asked them whether anywhere in the world there is a president who has allowed his country to be bombed. I do not care about Clinton! I live here and care about the responsibility of the man who leads this country.
No one normal likes bombs, but also, even in the most dangerous moments we must speak the truth. Who is responsible? I cannot say that Clinton is responsible. The bombardment of TV Serbia studios, refugees, other things, all of that is impermissible. Who brought that about?
Unlike you, most people thought that the primary responsibility lies on those who ordered the bombardment, rather than on those who perhaps provoked the bombardment.
To this day I am the only one who thought that primary responsibility lies here. I think that after so much time even Kostunica who all the time talked about NATO criminals and all sorts of other criminals, at the end of his election convention, whether consciously or unconsciously, said that Milosevic is the main culprit as far as the bombardment is concerned. I honestly think that Milosevic lost, that citizens voted against him because he exposed the country to the bombardment. That was done[sic].
Did that make you less efficient in the struggle for the protection of human rights? Did the citizens see you as someone who is always on the side of the international community and against this country?
I do not think that is true. I do not take sides. I have my own side, the side of human rights. This January I published a report about Orahovac. That was the first and only factual report with very grave accusations. That report was handed to the international community. Facts and evidence for all claims were provided in the report. The local Serbs begged me not to write anything against the international community. I realized how important that was for them, the feeling that they would be protected and not be abandoned. That is very important. They could not understand because they observe the situation from their vantage point and only see the repercussions on the local level and they depend on the international community and KFOR. But, as I've told you, Kosovo Serbs begged me not to criticize the international community.
Yes, but that is the same sort of self-protection as when these people do not dare speak in Serbian out of fear that someone could hear them in the street in Pristina.
Nevertheless, unlike in Pristina, they decided to stay in Orahovac, and all of them are huge fighters. Many of them have left, and are now criticizing from here, from Belgrade, but those people stayed in Orahovac. They are doing all they can in order to survive in Kosovo.
Yes, but their human rights are continuously endangered.
that is true, but they are huge fighters and they have achieved something. Therefore, nothing can be achieved without struggle. There are no human rights without struggle. Whenever I go to Kosovo I speak in Serbian. People do not know about me everywhere in Kosovo. When they say, "How can you speak in Serbian?", I say, "that's the only way I can fight here". Nothing else.