A PUTSCH IS NOT FOR THE ARMY

NIN, Belgrade, FR Yugoslavia, September 30, 1999

Colonel-general Nebojsa Pavkovic is a man completely convinced that he successfully carried out his military duty during the NATO aggression against Yugoslavia. That is why he likes his interviews to have titles like "The Third Army did not lose the war in Kosovo". And he has given more interviews than all the other active generals together in the last ten years. Just as he had the courage to wage war, Pavkovic has the courage to meet with reporters even though he is aware he is speaking to the newspaper which has "written all sorts of things about me" or that he will be questioned by a person who does not share his convictions. The general will endure all this only to prove yet again that his Third Army is not the loser in the war with NATO, even though it no longer controls 49 percent of Yugoslav territory but only 43 percent.

NIN: People are afraid of a new war. It is foreseen that the Yugoslav Army might intervene if Montenegro wished to secede. Would NATO take advantage of this for a nonselective, total bombing of Serbia?

NP: There is talk of renewed NATO aggression but there is no reason for this because, unlike KFOR and the UN, Yugoslavia and Serbia have honored all terms of Resolution 1244 and the Military-Technical Agreement. This is why I see no reason for us to be bombed again. Nothing is going to happen in Montenegro against the wishes of the Montenegrin people.

But if the Montenegrin leadership decides to secede, will the Yugoslav Army withdraw from Montenegro? Is it possible that the Yugoslav Army could be used in a potential conflict between Montenegro and the Yugoslav leadership?

That is a political question and I would like to express my personal opinion, as a citizen, not as a general of the Yugoslav Army. I believe that this will not happen. What will happen is what is agreed upon at the federal level.

We are surrounded by members of the Partnership for Peace. Does it not seem that any future conflict with Yugoslavia's neighbors would always be a conflict with NATO? May I remind you that at the beginning of the NATO aggression you said that you are aware that we cannot win against NATO?

We defended ourselves and we defended our country. We did not wage war against NATO. As far as the Partnership for Peace is concerned, I think that is an idea whose time has passed. There is no reason for us to enter the Partnership nor NATO. Our neighbors who have become members of the Partnership have gained nothing. A great deal of money is needed to become a member of NATO. I know of no country that has flourished as a result of joining NATO.

So you do not see the future of Yugoslavia in the Partnership for Peace?

No, I don't; the future of Yugoslavia is to be left in peace.

Is there talk of reorganization, modernization, professionalization of the Army and abandonment of the mandatory military service?

The experience of the last 10 years and the NATO aggression show that the physical size of the Army needs to be reduced. It must become more modern both in terms of its organization and its armament. It must be capable of deterring every possible aggression against our country, it must have well-developed systems of anti-air defense and specialized units capable of opposing the aggressor's special forces. The professionalization of the Army has already begun but it depends of the economic resources of the country. I believe that drafted recruits are the best war-time source for the defense of the country. These are people who approach defense with patriotism and loyalty.

How did you imagine that the war with NATO would end?

We knew we were attacked by the most powerful countries, but we did not expect them resort to all possible means to achieve their goal, to attack the people in the most brutal manner, to lead a campaign of criminal aggression. We knew they wanted to deploy in Kosovo, we expected aggression on the ground and it began with the first bombs. There were Shqiptar [Albanian] terrorists who every day attempted to enter our territory and create a base for NATO ground troops. We also knew they could not permit themselves great losses, which is what would have happened had they launched a ground offensive.

Does that mean that you believed that NATO would end its aggression if the Yugoslav Army inflicted sufficiently great losses to it?

When they realized that they could not achieve their military goal because they could not defeat us militarily, they began to select civilian targets. They wanted to frighten the population, to cause panic and to make us surrender. They acted in an absolutely disgraceful and dishonorable manner.

How does it feel to be militarily undefeated but to know that the Yugoslav Army is no longer in Kosovo and Metohija?

We were not defeated because NATO did not achieve a single military goal: it did not destroy the Yugoslav Army, it did not deploy in Kosovo until we allowed it to do so. It was forced to accept and acknowledge the UN and the engagement of the United Nations in order to get out of the situation in which it found itself. If their conscience was clean and if they had wanted to continue the aggression, they could have blocked the decision of the Security Council.

Have you visited the monasteries in Kosovo?

I have.

Which one of them was the "closest" to you?

All of them: the Pec Patriarchy, Gracanica, Samodreza. Especially Devic, which we helped a great deal. We visited this monastery numerous times [sic].

What would you say to Wesley Clark if you met him?

I would not want to meet him. We soldiers value our military honor above all else. He did not respect military honor and pride. You saw them haggling over whether to bomb the Usce business center; if 250 civilians die that would be considered tolerable, if 350 die that would be more difficult to explain. They targeted chemical plants which could have caused the death of tens of thousands of people. There is no honor and pride in that. In the final analysis of the results of the aggression in Brussels lies were repeated regarding destroyed tanks, armored transport vehicles, combat and non-combat vehicles. The commission for subregional weapons control knows exactly how many weapons we have and their serial numbers.

You previously announced the Army's return to Kosovo. This seemed more like a politically useful speech than a serious statement. Wouldn't the return of the Army without permission from the UN mean a new war with NATO?

We didn't intend to provoke a war. According to the Military-Technical Agreement, we must return to Kosovo to defend the border, demine the region... I spoke of returning in case the terms of Resolution 1244 were not carried out. In the event the KFOR mission is unsuccessful, the question of responsibility for the present state of events presents itself: why is the border not secured, why are the Serbs not defended, why has the KLA not been disarmed, why have our Constitution and our laws been suspended in Kosovo? Why did they come if they failed to do anything except further destabilize this region and Europe...

Could it be to separate Kosovo from Yugoslavia?

But Resolution 1244 says that Kosovo is an inseparable part of Yugoslavia, that there will not be a referendum on the independence of Kosovo.

In any case, is it not true that less than a thousand of our soldiers are to return to Kosovo?

Less than a thousand, that's correct. But we would have a presence in Kosovo and Metohija. All other forms of opposition are not possible for now and our country respects the agreements which it signs.

Surveys show that the Yugoslav Army enjoys an incomparably greater measure of confidence among the public than the governing coalition. Does it seem to you that in promoting you, the Army, more than it has done in the past the government wants to grab a portion of your and the Army's popularity for itself?

I don't know of such surveys. I know that the Yugoslav Army has regained its reputation among the people because it has always stood by the people. I don't know if one can rightly speak of my popularity. I would say that people have an interest in what happened in Kosovo during the aggression. I visit soldiers who served in war units when I am invited. There is no reason that we as soldiers should not appear among our people.

That is true but is it not also true that for a long time, the government has paid more attention to the Police than to the Army?

Those are just stories, I've noticed no such thing. We are treated the same, the Police does its job and the Army does its job. Even you who like to talk about such things do not have any evidence that the Army and Police are treated differently.

How about salaries, equipment and weapons?

The military and the Police are financed in different ways.

Did you frequently meet with Slobodan Milosevic?

Officially, when needed, prior to, during, and after the aggression. I participated in the work of the General Army Staff as the commander of the Third Army.

What kind of impression did he leave on you.

He is a man who cares about Serbia and the Serbian people and who did everything possible to avoid the aggression and to bring an end to the aggression. He is in complete command of the political situation and an important factor in resolving not only the crisis in the region of Yugoslavia, but also in Europe and the world. Sooner or later he will have to be accepted as the only factor in the solution of the crisis in the Balkans and Europe.

Did you vote in the elections?

Of course, I performed my civic duty.

Did you participate in any political meetings?

No, I didn't.

Why don't you go to a meeting of the Alliance for Change and tell those people what you are in the habit of repeating, that you are an army of all the people?

They know that, I have been saying it since day one. But some of them interpreted it in the wrong way. Nevertheless, now they have accepted what I have been saying. The essence of it was that there must be no conflict in Serbia, there must not be a civil war.

In Nis they are saying that while many received acknowledgments from the Yugoslav Army, the city council of Nis received a plaque only following a television show in which the citizens of Nis asked you why they had not been acknowledged. Not long ago, the mayor of Nis left the stage when the head of the district began to speak regarding the swearing in of a new generation of soldiers.

We have acknowledged all citizens of Nis but not the heads of the local government. Some received letters of thanks and the citizens of Nis received a plaque. At the swearing in ceremony, according to regulations, representatives of the government may address the soldiers and congratulate them on their oath. It is normal that a head of the district has precedence over a representative of local government. The mayor of Nis was also on the agenda to speak. However, he became upset because he was not speaking first and left the stage.

So the mayor of Nis could have spoken after yourself and the regional head?

Yes. But it is not good that people who head local governments represent only the interests of their respective parties and not the interests of all citizens. They only speak as representatives of their parties.

Since 1990 there has been talk of a military putsch. Since he has become a politician as well as a general, Momcilo Perisic is frequently asked why he did not carry out a putsch. His response was that this was not the Army's role. Was it not?

Of course it is not the Army's role. A military putsch in the heart of Europe on the eve of the 21st century is a tremendous absurdity. I know that there was some talk of a putsch in 1990 and 1991. It's not easy to carry out a putsch.

Perisic also said that he would not have withdrawn from Kosovo which means that there is a time or a situation when the Army rejects obedience to the political government which is always above it, does it not?

In that show Perisic first said that the Army should not have been sent to Kosovo to fight terrorists, that this was the Police's job, and two minutes later he said that he would not have withdrawn from Kosovo.

Would there be less tension between the Army and politicians if the constitutional clause that the Army is to defend the constitutional order (which is a remnant of Communism) was excluded, and its responsibilities included only the borders and territorial integrity of the country?

Members of the Third Army have no problems and cooperate with everyone. I have no such problems. I am not the person to talk to about the Constitution.

Why doesn't the Army propose this to make it's life easier?

The Army doesn't get involved in such things!

Do you guarantee that our soldiers will have enough food and that they will not freeze this winter?

I guarantee that there will be food and everything else. The Third Army has already renovated 30 buildings and before winter it will have completed more than a hundred additional buildings. Not a single soldier will be housed outside a permanent structure.

Do you know what your soldiers eat?

I do. I frequently eat with them. We have enough food. All reserves of food, fuel and equipment... have been withdrawn from Kosovo.

What is your salary?

About five thousand dinars [$6,000 per annum according to the official exchange rate].

Is that enough for a general?

Considering the capabilities of the country, yes. It is not good for the Army to be much better off than average. There is time for salaries to improve. But it would not be good for members of the Yugoslav Army to live in the lap of luxury when they are surrounded by poor people. And it's not true that the Army is protesting because of salaries. We understand the state of the country, we are the most conscientious part of society.