Nice: Can you describe for me the meeting held on November 27 1991? Where was that meeting held and who participated in it?
Kljuic: That meeting was held in Zagreb in the official residency of President of Croatia Franjo Tudman. Besides president Tudman, other attendees were Stipe Mesic, Josip Manolic, Dalibor Brozovic, Dr. Milan Ramljak, Gojko Susak, Ante Beljo and several other officials of the party [HDZ] and the Croatian government.
On our side the participants were Croat members of the government and Presidency of Bosnia-Hercegovina, as well as presidents of various regional organizations of HDZ, although it should be stated that we arrived and left Zagreb separately.
Prosecutor Nice asked Mr. Kljuic to identify the document under number 2717.
Kljuic: that is the record of the meeting held in Zagreb on November 27 1991.
Kljuic reads the speech made by president Tudman: "In present conditions it is not in the Croat interest to support the survival of sovereign Bosnia-Hercegovina. Perhaps, we will not openly advocate that, but why shouldn't we accept this offer for the setting up of a new border, since that is in the interest of the Croat people, both here in Croatia and in Bosnia-Hercegovina? I do not see any strong nor serious arguments against that idea, especially after the talks I had with Milosevic and Izetbegovic. One of our men in Bosnia has made a proposal for the change of borders that includes the territories covered by your community of Herceg-Bosna, which will be connected to the Croat sovereignty here [in Croatia]. In addition to these two communities Croatia should probably, for political reasons, get the region of Cazin and Bihac and such a solution would fully satisfy the Croatian national interest".
Kljuic (still reading president Tudman's speech): "The remaining part in which mostly Muslims and some Croats would remain, in other words the part around Sarajevo, could be transformed into a small state, a statelet which would be a remnant of the state of Bosnia, and would be a buffer zone between Serbia and Croatia in this part of their borders. That statelet would mostly rely on Croatian support.
"International factors should be satisfied with this solution, since they are in any case probably seriously counting on a similar solution. As has recently been mentioned, they are probably counting on the Serb army to take care of the Muslim element, Islamic element on the territory of Yugoslavia, whose aspirations are to establish an Islamic state in Europe with support from Iran and Libya."
Prosecutor Nice again insisted that witness Kljuic return to the parts of the record of the meeting where Croatian president Tudman explained his vision of the survival of the Bosnian state.
Kljuic (quoting Tudman): "All historical facts are pointing out that Bosnia-Hercegovina is not a solution for the Croat nation. Above all, it was created by the colonial conquest of Asian powers. Gentlemen, let us not forget that Bosnia was established in the period between 15th and 18th century on parts of territory belonging to the Croat nation and Croatia. All similar colonial creations in Asia and Africa are gone. Bosnia-Hercegovina did not exist between WWI and WWII. Communists recreated it after WWII. They even made Muslims into a nation to, supposedly, resolve the problem between the Serbs and Croats. Did they succeed in that? Of course not! They achieved just the opposite. Therefore, Bosnia-Hercegovina should not be treated as something given by God and something that will survive. It should not be forgotten how harmful a survival of Bosnia could be.
"Croatia has been brought into an impossible situation because of the creation of Bosnia-Hercegovina. We cannot create independent Croatia in administrative sense, let alone organize its defense. Therefore, what are the perspectives? What is the future of the Croat people in Bosnia-Hercegovina? I have already said that the number of Croats in Bosnia-Hercegovina has fallen from 24 percent of population to 17 percent [in 1991]. Mr. Vlasic from Travnik says that the number of Croats in Travnik has dropped from 56 percent to 37 percent. You can rest assured that, if Bosnia-Hercegovina becomes an independent country, the number of Croats will fall further to horrific proportions in ten years time. Muslims count on demographic expansion because of their high birth rate and immigration of 500,000 of Muslims from Turkey etc."
Prosecutor Nice: That Tudman's remark that Croatia cannot exist in its present form and shape, is that something he said only once or has he repeated that on several occasions?
Kljuic: This was the first occasion when he stated that so clearly.
Prosecutor Nice asked witness Kljuic to continue to read president Tudman's speech.
Kljuic (reading the speech): "Because of technical reasons, we support sovereign Bosnia-Hercegovina as long as it exists, but sovereign Bosnia does not exist any more. Serbs have seceded. You [Bosnian Croats] are excluded from the government. The Bosnian government has no authority in the parts of Bosnia controlled by the Serbs. And not only Serb parts of Bosnia but all of Bosnia-Hercegovina is included in the war against Croatia..."
Nice: Can you recall whether anything was said at that meeting about the fate of Muslims? I shall remind you based on this record, if necessary, but perhaps you can give me your interpretation?
Kljuic: Both factions in that meeting had their own vision of the relations with Muslims. My faction believed that Muslims are an important partner in the defense of Bosnia-Hercegovina and we saw in them our historical partners, our only political allies.
Boban's faction underestimated Muslims and later it turned out that they had contacts with Serbs in the period when Serb fascism raged against the Croat people, not only in Vukovar, but also in Dubrovnik and other parts of Croatia.
Kljuic: At that meeting he for the first time stated that the shape of Croatia is not satisfactory and that it must be changed. Such policy could be seen in Dayton as well, when the best parts of Croatian territory in the Sava valley region in northern Bosnia were sacrificed for three municipalities, Drvar, Glamoc and Bosansko Grahovo. But, let me return to the main question, the fact that at the meeting attendees were divided into those who did not believe in the significance of the Helsinki convention from 1975 and those who believed in the survival of Bosnia-Hercegovina. On the other hand, president Tudman stated that Bosnia-Hercegovina was a colonial creation. Bosnia is a state with thousand-years-old tradition and Croats from Bosnia did not move there from Croatia but are an autochthonous people, which arrived there in the seventh century from the Carpathian Mountains, as other Slavs. Finally, Bosnia-Hercegovina is a rare example in Europe, since it had the most stable borders in the last 400 years.
Nice: In your opinion, did the position of the other faction agree with the original platform of HDZ in Bosnia-Hercegovina and the laws of Bosnia-Hercegovina?
Kljuic: The group I led mostly consisted from the people at high positions in the government and many local leaders from the central and north Bosnia. They gave full support to the idea of sovereign and independent Bosnia-Hercegovina.
Nice: What about the other faction? I would like to know whether the other faction was in agreement with the original HDZ platform and laws of Bosnia-Hercegovina?
Kljuic: In that period, no one was against the laws of Bosnia-Hercegovina, but the faction led by Boban and other people from Hercegovina was obviously against the platform adopted at the party meeting held in Mostar.
Nice: Did Boban and his group act independently from Zagreb?
Kljuic: No, they did not.
Nice: Could you explain how you felt after leaving that meeting? Could you predict what would happen with different factions which abviously exsted at the time?
Kljuic: The last two paragraphs clearly indicate that they were prepared to execute a trick. The plan was to officially support sovereign Bosnia-Hercegovina, while in reality they did the opposite; they tried to undermine it because they did not support independent Bosnia. Unlike them, I really believed in the future of my country; both as a human being and a communist dissident I openly talked about the goals of my struggle. I and many people from my faction were against the tactics of openly advocating sovereign Bosnia-Hercegovina while actually working against it. On the other hand, many attendees of that meeting later left the political scene because backward ideas which were advocated at that meeting failed with the future events, the Washington Agreement, the Dayton Agreement, according to which Bosnia-Hercegovina became a sovereign state with unchangeable borders.