Professor Kimet Fetahu, originally from Golo Brdo and a distinguished representative of the ethnic Macedonian language rights movement in Albania, chaired the debate. Representatives of the Albanian government failed to participate in the discussion, even though they had been invited. However, representatives of the Macedonian embassy in Tirana, OSCE mission in Tirana, as well as several non-governmental organizations attended the round table.
VANGELOV: As is well known, OMO "Ilinden"-PIRIN was banned by the Constitutional Court of Bulgaria. The Court also ordered that its members be banned from participating in politics in the future. Consequently, a group of citizens of Bulgaria, who supported the policies advocated by OMO "Ilinden"-PIRIN, decided to found a new party with the goal of participating in political processes, above all the forthcoming local elections.
Is there a danger that the new party will end up with the same fate and be refused registration, and that consequently ethnic Macedonians will be banned from participating in politics in Bulgaria?
Our party has all the characteristics of a modern political party. We respect the Bulgarian Political Organization Law. Our statute and political program are based on the Political Organization Law, so that we expect that the court in Sofia will approve our application.
Is there a chance that politicians may influence court and prevent the registration of the new party?
The ban of OMO "Ilinden"-PIRIN by the Constitutional court was a political act. The way this case reached the Constitutional Court is telling. The demand to ban the party came from representatives in the Parliament, rather than from civil servants who may had detected a violation of the law. We hope that this time the judiciary in Bulgaria will distance itself from politics, as any true independent judiciary should.
Given the establishment of a new party, would there be no strife with OMO "Ilinden"-PIRIN?
There can be no strife between these two parties. On the contrary, it could be said that OMO-PIRIN is a political party that will extend the legacy of OMO "Ilinden"-PIRIN. Given a favorable turn of events, if the European Court in Strasbourg accepts the appeal of the banned party and the Sofia city court agrees to register the party, we expect that with time these two parties will unite.
It is believed that Prime Minister Simeon Sakskoburgotski is a democrat and is not burdened by the past. With his assumption of power and the positive decision of the European Court in Strasbourg in favor of OMO "Ilinden", has anything changed in the attitude with respect to the ethnic Macedonian minority in Bulgaria?
Judging by the behavior of state institutions, police and other institutions, with respect to public gatherings organized by Bulgarian citizens who declare themselves as ethnic Macedonians over the last few months, we have the impression that things are getting better. The decision from Strasbourg, as well as assessments of the International Crisis Group, even if slowly, have had a positive effect and seem to have prompted political and state institutions to change their attitude with respect to us. The recent ICG report touched upon elementary rights that should be enjoyed by citizens of every modern European state, guaranteed by the Framework Convention for Minority Rights, which has been ratified by Bulgaria. Besides, article four of the Bulgarian constitution states that international documents ratified by the state have precedence over laws, in case they contradict each other.
Does Bulgaria respect rights of minorities?
In Bulgaria there are still nationalist political parties. Unfortunately, most political leaders support such policies and I believe that it is high time Bulgarian politicians accepted European norms and standards in connection with ethnic minorities. In that sense VMRO-BNR is most prominent. Recently that party has been organizing public debates and denying the existence of the Macedonian nation and language. First, let me point out that the name of this party makes no sense. How can these two constructions, Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization, and Bulgarian National Movement, go together? I don't see anything in common between these two names. Secondly, their campaign of denial of existence of the Macedonian nation and language above all damages Bulgaria and its prospect of joining the European union. It appears that the VMRO hasn't learned anything from the time of the totalitarian regime of Todor Zivkov, when ethnic Turks "became" Bulgarians. They are trying to create a mono-ethnic state. Now the VMRO in Sofia is also supporting these policies.
What is your view of the politics of the current authorities in Macedonia with respect to ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria?
Macedonia has no policy with respect to ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria. In my opinion, they have simply given up on ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria. The attitude of the current authorities in Macedonia, and ambassador Ljubisa Georgievski in Sofia, is no different. We have tried to meet with him on several occasions, but he keeps avoiding us. That is why I would like to use this opportunity to let him know that ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria are not five men with seven political parties, as he recently stated. He should know that we, five men only according to him, have recently presented eight books in Skopje.
In Bulgaria there are claims that in the recent population census only 3,000 persons declared themselves for ethnic Macedonians. Is that true?
I am not aware of the origin of these claims. The exact number should come from the National Statistics Institute, which is in charge of the population census. Similarly, I cannot say how many citizens declared themselves as ethnic Macedonians, because results are guarded like a top secret. The Institute still hasn't announced anything officially, and since we are aware of the official attitude of Bulgarian authorities with respect to ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria, I am convinced that the number of those who declared themselves as ethnic Macedonians is much, much larger. That is why the official results of the census still haven't been published. So far Bulgarian authorities have never presented realistic figures regarding the number of ethnic Macedonians living in Bulgaria. If it happens this time, that would be the first time ever. I believe so also because of recent statement made by Macedonian-hater Dr. Bozidar Dimitrov, published in a daily newspaper. To the question regarding the number of ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria he answered that there are more of them than 3,000, but not much more than that. According to him, the one but last population census recorded 30-40 thousand or perhaps 80 thousand ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria. If the person infamous for being a Macedonian-hater says so, it means there must be many more of us than officially admitted by the authorities.
PETAR VASILIJADIS: We won that case a while ago, in 1998. At this moment, the case is being considered by the highest Greek court and we expect that it will be favorably resolved this year. Perhaps in less than a month we shall be officially recognized by the Greek authorities as a Macedonian association with a Culture Center and headquarters in Lerin [Florina]. By the way, over the last few years we haven't had any problems. As "Vinozito" we have another case in front of the European court. We demand that those who demolished and burned our offices in Lerin a few years ago be brought to justice. Greek courts have dismissed that lawsuit, so we appealed to Strasbourg. We expect that at least a year from now the Greek state will again be condemned by the European Court, due to its failure to recognize our human rights and for destruction of the sign for our office, which was written in Greek and Macedonian languages.
However, recently Greek authorities have displayed fear of other ethnic minorities, which, like us, demand recognition. That applies above all to Vlachs, who want to preserve their language and culture and have consequently turned to courts. A year ago there was a lawsuit involving a Vlach and we collaborated with them. He was condemned by the first and second instance courts, but won the case in the third instance court and hasn't had any problems since then. Now, a different case has started, involving a Pomak [Slav Muslims, ethnic Macedonians or Bulgarians], and we, Macedonians, are also collaborating on this case.
What are your basic goals as a political party?
We want to assist all citizens who declare themselves as ethnic Macedonians to preserve their culture, regardless of whether they live in Solun [Thessaloniki], Athens, Lerin, Kostur [Kastoria] or somewhere else. Our basic goal is to preserve and develop Macedonian culture, traditions and customs, to preserve the Macedonian language. We are fighting for the inclusion of the Macedonian language in state sponsored primary education in Greece, naturally in those parts where ethnic Macedonians are concentrated. That is one of our main goals. We want to publish books in the Macedonian language, and also plan to create media, radio and TV stations in the Macedonian language. Because, it is much easier to approach people through culture, than only through politics. Of course, a lot of time will be needed for our efforts to be accepted by ethnic Macedonians. We are aware that this will be a long and difficult process. This will not be accomplished overnight. We hope that the opening of the Culture Center will strengthen that process. We, ethnic Macedonians living in Greece, do not want to end up like American Indians.
According to your sources, how many ethnic Macedonians currently live in Greece? Are they free to express their ethnic identity? What difficulties do you face?
When they ask us, in "Vinozito", how many ethnic Macedonians live in Greece, we respond that numbers are not our main concern. It's not that we would not like to be a numerous minority, it's not that we would not like it if increasing numbers of Greek citizens declared themselves as ethnic Macedonians. Above all, we want to live in Greece, where there are not only ethnic Macedonians but also other ethnic minorities and we want to participate in the democratization of this country. Our response to your first question is that it does not matter whether there are 50, 100 or 200 thousand or more ethnic Macedonians. Regardless of our numbers, Greek authorities should recognize our minority rights. That is a process in which everyone will be able to display true emotions, to say freely, yes, I am an ethnic Macedonian. However, our people are still afraid of publicly stating their ethnicity. Some of them are afraid of losing their jobs, or are concerned that their children would be disadvantaged [if they declare themselves as ethnic Macedonians]. For these and other reasons many of them, even though they are aware of being ethnic Macedonians, hide that. Besides, our people are afraid of events in the Republic of Macedonia and in the Balkans in general, of general instability. On the other hand, Macedonia turned out to be a very weak state and was unable to assist them in any way in achieving greater minority rights, unlike other, stronger and more stable states.
"Vinozito" has participated in elections. What results have you achieved?
I believe that, as far as ethnic Macedonians are concerned, elections in Greece are not democratic. We have no media that could be used to promote our views or run our election campaigns. The only election activity that is open to us boils down to visiting villages and trying to verbally convince people to vote for our candidates. We do not have other sources of power that would influence voters. Consequently, essentially we are not equal to other parties with much more financial and media support.
Recently "Vinozito" became a member of the European Bureau for Little-Used Languages? What is the role of this bureau and what are the implications of membership for ethnic Macedonians in Greece?
The European bureau, essentially, has been formed to take care of little-used languages. Its office should soon be opened in Greece, and an ethnic Macedonian will be a head of that office. So far, officially the Republic of Greece is supposed to preserve five languages, Macedonian, Turkish, Pomak, Vlach and Arnaut [Albanian]. That's what we call it, and that's what they call it - Arnaut. The office should prompt the Greek society to refrain from preventing minorities speaking these languages to preserve them. Greece is the only country in Europe that does not permit use of any languages besides Greek.