interview by Goran MALIC
BOBETKO: That is an illiterate, beginner's homework. From the institution with the budget the size of the Hague Tribunal's I expected more, at least more thoroughness. However, there is no doubt that this is political persecution. They have no evidence, not even any indications that during the time the operation Medacki Dzep took place, or later, I was at the spot of the crime, issued orders that crimes be committed, or something like that. Just generalities, superficiality and lies.
You are still determined not to go to the Hague?
Of course. That is the decision of my life. Especially now that I can see what their indictment is based on. I don't want to allow them to try me in the Hague. I have received a lot of support. All political parties with representation in the Croatian Parliament as well as the state leadership support me in my attempt to protect Croatia from a new aggression.
President Mesic did not declare his support?
Mesic is something else. He told lies about me in the past as well. Once he had said that my pension was 18,000 Kunas, so that I sent him a letter in which I told him what my actual pension was and asked him why he used lies. I do not want to talk about that. It's undignified.
General Ademi.
What did you do once you found out that Serb civilians had been killed?
The only thing I could. I dismissed Ademi and Colonel Mile Kosovic, whose Domobran [Home Guards] unit I suspected of committing crimes. I suspected that crimes could take place. Gospic had for a long time been within the range of chetnik [derogatory term for Serbs] artillery. Chetniks bombed the town almost daily. People lived underground, in cellars. I was aware that, if they followed the military, blood would flow. A man from Gospic once told me: "General, they raped and murdered my daughter in front of me. I do not need your clemency, you can stuff it. Whatever the case, I'll find someone to kill in revenge". Therefore, that was the general mood among the people. But that could have been suppressed.
How?
By excluding the element of revenge, i.e. the local population, from the units involved in the operation.
Who was supposed to do that?
In a conversation with General Ademi, I ordered that Domobran units be kept from liberated areas. I was very specific! In my oral order I said that only Norac's brigade with armored company chosen by him and Markac's special forces from the Mount Velebit side can participate in that operation. I was specific and adamant that Domobran units were to be kept away from the operation. However, that nevertheless happened. What was I supposed to do? Dismiss responsible officers, that was all.
Did you issue orders that committed crimes be investigated?
No, because that was not my problem. I was not a game warden in a forest. I was the Chief of Staff. The investigation was supposed to be conducted by Military Police.
Did you ever get a report on the results of the investigation?
No, I did not. Until today I have no idea if the investigation was ever conducted. I know that the chief medic checked the bodies and turned them over to UNPROFOR, but I don't know anything about the investigation. The Military Police was not under my command. They were subordinated to the Ministry of Defense.
I delegated that task to Generals Domazet and Stipetic. I told them that they were in charge of troops during the withdrawal and to make sure there were no incidents. Soldiers were pretty disappointed by the fact that they had to abandon conquered territory. They had risked their lives and suddenly they had to return that territory to chetniks. I was aware that incidents were possible and I specifically ordered that incidents be prevented. However, first Stipetic, and then Domazet, left Medacki Dzep before the withdrawal was over. Therefore, they did not fulfill their tasks.
UNPROFOR immediately complained regarding the behavior of the Croatian Army?
General Cot demanded access to Medacki Dzep even before the operation was completed. He wanted to enter the pocket at all cost with Canadian troops. He was extremely crude and arrogant. I told him that it was night time and that I could not guarantee the safety of his troops in the midst of fighting, and especially at night. There may have been shooting there, landmines, it was a war, not a waltz. I advised him to wait until the next morning, when I would send him people to take him wherever he wanted to go. But he did not want to wait and behaved recklessly. He was angry and arrogant, so that I had to ask him: "Fine, if you're such a big deal of an army, tell me one war you won in the last hundred years? One at least?" He sent his men to wonder through forest in the midst of night. As could be expected, they stumbled into a mine field, some died, some were wounded. Later in his report he claimed that the Croatian Army refused to assist in evacuation of the wounded soldiers. That was a lie. I immediately called the military attaché of the American Embassy who was a polite, cooperative man and an expert, and asked him to set up his commission, which he did. That commission demonstrated that Croatian soldiers assisted Canadians, and the Security Council was informed about that. Consequently, General Cot publicly apologized to us in Vecernji List.
Do you know who let Colonel Kosovic's unit into Medacki Dzep?
No, I don't.
Norac and Kosovic were active together in Gospic...
That is true, but Norac successfully defended Gospic. His role was crucial. When I arrived in Gospic I met him as a young boy who had no military training but had a big heart. He had a handful of soldiers. Tus took away their artillery and moved it to Rijeka. What was artillery needed for in Rijeka, where not a single bullet had been fired?
How did you cooperate with Tus at that time, when he was the Chief of Staff?
I carried out my tasks, as everyone. But, one third of Croatia would have never fallen to the enemy if I had commanded the Croatian Army. Fine, we would have had some losses, but would not have lost a whole third of the country. We had a Chief of Staff who was isolated in his bunker in Zagreb, where he could not have been hurt even by a nuclear weapon. Posavina was falling and he failed to even make an appearance. But he is today in Brussels, thanks to his connections, which he earned by supposedly criticizing the Croatian Democratic Union (HDZ). He gets paid $10,000 per month, while those wretches who rushed tanks under his command live on one or two thousands of Kuna per month.
That is a lie. I proposed the action to president Tudman, because I visited the front line and saw that Gospic had been bombed from numerous nearby hills. I saw how people in Gospic lived, like beasts, underground. A third had already left. There were only two options - either we attack or Gospic falls. Tudman approved the operation, and I told Ademi, Markac and Norac to prepare a plan. Ademi came to me with three plans of action. I immediately discarded the first one, since it required more troops and weaponry, and it was too ambitious. I also discarded the second one, and I accepted the third one since it included already available units and was of local character. The goal of the operation was not ethnic cleansing but to neutralize the opponent and take control of positions from which Gospic had been bombed. Consequently, the operation was of local character and we succeeded in that. Unfortunately, following the decision of the commander in chief, we had to withdraw and allow chetniks to return. UNPROFOR kept protecting them, but it failed to protect us from them.
The last conversation I had with Ademi took place at least twenty days before the start of the operation and we discussed all the details. He signed the order to initiate the operation. Therefore, if he did not understand something, or found something unacceptable, he could have rejected it, just the way I discarded one plan of action and accepted another one. That's the way military works. There is no "I thought it was going to be different", "I thought it was going to be sunny, but then it rained". In the military orders are carried out and one is held responsible for them.
Was air force used in the operation Medacki Dzep, as Tudman claims in a transcript from a session of the Council for National Security (VONS)?
Air force was not included in the operation at all. As I said, it was an operation of local character which did not demand large resources. Instead it counted on the factor of surprise. We had Markac's special forces on the Velebit Mountain, which the enemy did not anticipate. They did not expect an attack from the Velebit Mountain. That was the crucial factor of surprise. Consequently, it did not occur to me to use the air force. Air force should be only used when necessary and not like in the operation Storm when Agotic sent airplanes to bomb a Serb column. A lot of civilians died on that occasion, and look, no one in the Hague is mentioning Agotic, but they pick on me, who is totally innocent in these matters.
We talked about the situation. They told me that the situation is under control, that Croatia has arguments for its defense, and that they would not extradite me to the Hague at any cost. My response to that was "good, since I'm not going the Hague anyway". As a civilized person I invited them to visit me so that we can exchange opinions. I am not a savage, I am prepared to talk.
At one point you were prepared to talk with the Hague Tribunal investigators as well. What made you change your mind?
I changed my mind when they issued an arrest warrant. There is no court, anywhere in the world, which issues an indictment before hearing your side. Everywhere they call you and ask you if you want to talk or not, in presence of a lawyer, and then they talk to you. Why was it different with me? Why did they indict me before talking to me? Perhaps I had an argument or two, perhaps more. However, the Hague Tribunal Prosecution obviously did not care about that. They are in a hurry. However I am an old man I am not in a hurry to get anywhere.
What did you talk about with Sanader and Seks?
I told them that party politics should be kept out of this. This issue is too important for something like that. This is a trial of defensive actions of the Croatian Army and me as its commander. At stake is the status of the Homeland War. If they succeed with their accusations it would not even survive as a symbol. There would be nothing left. Nothing. We should not differentiate, who is on the left and who is on the right and who in the middle. We should all support the efforts of our government. This is the first time that Croats are united in something, after many years. We should know how to preserve that unity. Consequently, I warned that if some rallies are organized, I do not want that they be promoted by particular political parties. I do not want that anyone bargain with interests of Croatia.
Is it true that you asked the Prime Minister to remove policemen from your street?
I told him that I had seen too many policemen in my lifetime. I appealed to him to move them, since they need not protect me. I know how to protect myself.
Original headline: "Bobetko optuzuje"