The letter from the UN Security Council only raised tensions in the region. The people were hoping that Croatia might reintegrate this territory as one county. However, as the international community, transition administrator Jacques Klein, and Croatian government hadn't done that, fear and insecurity resurfaced among the population. The people know that the division of this region into two counties will turn them into a minority, that they will make up about 20 to 25 percent of population in each county and will be able to politically organize only on the level of the future municipalities and hold power in those municipalities. We thought that our local self rule as the lowest level of state organization would be a sufficient guarantee for people to stay. After the Security Council decision, there have been many protest rallies in the region. Their number is growing by the day; we are afraid that there might be incidents in the future. In a mass of people someone, either on Croat or Yugoslav side, can easily cause an incident.
Is that why you recently traveled to Zagreb to see president Tudman...?
I went to Zagreb with the transition administrator Klein. My intention was to discuss changes in the organization of municipalities. The existing Croatian law is perfidious: some local villages were grouped with Croatian villages with which they have no communication, cultural or ethnic links, only to make sure that Croats are a majority in those municipalities. For example, you have to pass through Vukovar when traveling from one village to another, and they are both in the same municipality. That will not work, the people understand that and will not accept it. Thanks to Klein and president Tudman's understanding we made some progress in Zagreb.
Can you tell us more about that?
At first Ivica Kostovic claimed that any reorganization was out of question. Since General Klein, as the executive power in the region, has the right to organize electoral units in the region he said to Tudman: "If there is no agreement I will organize the electoral units as I see fit". We tried to find a compromise which could be passed as a law in the Parliament, to avoid the situation where there will be one set of electoral units under Klein and another one after him. However, president Tudman showed understanding and ordered the government to put together a decree equivalent to a law which would organize the municipalities to satisfy both sides: Serbs and Croats. If it turns out to be possible to organize the council of municipalities as is envisioned in all documents, starting with the Erdut Agreement, UN Security Council Resolution to the most recent Security Council letter, that could be enough to convince the population to stay in the region and participate in the elections.
Why insist so much on keeping east Slavonia as a single administrative unit as opposed to, for example, respect of minority and human rights of the population?
The people demand a single administrative unit for east Slavonia and no one can convince them to give up that demand. They think that a single administrative unit would provide more protection. There is some logic in that: recently we had a war here. As far as the respect for human rights is concerned, we know well how that works in Croatia. That's why we insist on that issue. If the human rights situation in Croatia were different, we would have accepted everything much easier. Nevertheless, we believe that keeping eastern Slavonia as a single administrative unit would provide more security. We are not demanding, as some say, political autonomy. That is a matter of the past.
In Croatia, at least as far as east Slavonia is concerned, there is a usual division on the majority of the ordinary Serb population who were drawn into the war against their will and would accept reintegration and the so called ring-leaders, who cannot accept the Croatian authorities and are threatening collective exodus. Is this division realistic?
There is some truth in that. However, I must point out that a majority of the Serb population here, having in mind that the fighting started while Croatia was still not an independent state, wanted to remain in Yugoslavia. They believed that they had a right to do so. Since they had lived in Socialist Republic of Croatia which was a part of Yugoslavia, they believed that a hen is older than an egg. When Croatia was recognized as an independent state within the borders of SR Croatia, people realized that this territory became a part of Croatia. Some people cannot accept that to this day and will have to leave for all sorts of reasons. Consequently, they promote an option according to which either everyone will stay or everyone will leave. That is impossible: neither everyone will stay, nor everyone will leave. We should try to be more realistic and less emotional.
I'd rather not talk about doves and hawks. Croatia accepted me as a negotiator, or rather as a collocutor. There are no negotiations. All negotiations have been completed and the results are in signed documents. Nevertheless, some people do not understand that process, even though they are in the leadership. They expect that something will happen, although, probably, even they do not know what that may be. I don't understand those people: it seems they only care for applause at rallies. Quite often, when I tell the truth people whistle, but a week or two later they realize that I was telling the truth and not those to whom they applauded.
Why did you recently visit Pale? Were you trying to find shelter for those who want to leave east Slavonia?
I went to Pale to find the solution for the people from Bosnia who settled here and will probably have to leave. The other reason was that at that time we sent a letter to the UN Security Council demanding that the region remain a single organizational unit in Croatia. I had talks about that with the American ambassador in Sarajevo and asked him to consider that problem, together with Kornblum and Klein. I received some promises but eventually everything ended differently. In Sarajevo and Banja Luka, I was told not to leave our homes at any cost.
What were you told in Serbia?
Serbia has the same attitude: they also think that we should stay, that we have the right to live here. Having in mind the present situation in Serbia, our exodus to Serbia would probably be the end of the Milosevic regime. At this time, our interests coincide with those of Yugoslavia and the international community. I hope that they coincide with Croatian interests as well, the interests of honest Croatia. The extreme Croats certainly have a different agenda.
Are you getting ready for the elections? Are you setting up political parties? Will you run in the elections as a single Serb political block?
We've set up the initiative council of the Independent Democratic Serb Party (SDSS). That's our little mischief, because they didn't let us name it Serbian Democratic Party (SDS), because it is supposedly a terrorist organization. Then we decided to name our party SDSS. We must run in the elections with a Serb party because of the Serb people in this region. Of course, the elections will again lead to divisions. It is too early to talk about some Serb-Croat coalitions. As far as the participation in voting is concerned, I don't know what the people will decide. We are preparing as if we will take part in the elections, but our regional parliament will make the final decision.
It is good that the list won't be made public. I've had a chance to look at the list and I can tell you that it is shameful for the Croatian Ministry of Justice.
Are you talking about the most recent list with about 170 names?
The number doesn't matter, I'm talking about the people on the list. The list does not contain names of the people who could have committed war crimes. It is a list of ordinary people, two of whom are dead; a woman aged 70 is also on the list. The list is disgraceful...
Excuse me, I'm not sure that we are speaking about the same list. Are you referring to the older list with more than 700 names or the most recent with about 170 names?
I'm talking about the most recent list. If that list is published, it will be a disgrace for Croatia. I think that someone realized that, because in the meantime the heading was removed from the list; the heading said: "Ministry of Justice, Minister, Cabinet, sent to president Tudman".... Now they've got rid of all that, there's just a list of people who have nothing to do with war crimes. Participation in the war is a different matter. All of us were in the trenches, because we are so few here. But, the meaning of a war crime, a genocide is clear. I claim that less then ten percent of people on that list could be tried on that basis. I've seen the list and personally know a few people who are on the list. It is a catastrophe.
The motives for such a list are clear. I know that Croatian public believes that the list with 170 names is too short. But, Germany after W.W.II had 40 people who were tried for war crimes. Germany, after W.W.II! And here, there are 170 war criminals out of 150,000 people.
Are people leaving east Slavonia in large numbers there days? What is your estimate regarding the number of those leaving in the future?
We estimate that between 6,000 and 7,000 have already left; in other words between 1,600 and 1,700 families. Although most of them were refugees, some were the Serbs who had lived in this region before the war. What's even more tragic is that among them were Hungarians and Croats who left Baranja. It is hard to tell how many will stay. People are afraid, they are moving their possessions to Serbia and coming back. The situation is very chaotic.
We've made progress as far as the people who had lived here before the war are concerned; I believe that all of them will receive documents. However, there are a lot of manipulations with the refugees from other parts of Croatia. These people need documents to vote in the forthcoming election. Unfortunately, there are some irregularities. Some of them submit applications, but only a part of the family receives the documents, while the other part, usually men, doesn't. The biggest problem is the cutoff date which we do not accept, as I will point out today to the American ambassador Galbraith and everyone I talk to in the future: we cannot accept that Croatian citizens who moved to this region after January 16 1996 do not have the right to vote in the forthcoming election.
Did you receive any guarantees from president Tudman that your demands will be fulfilled? Does anyone here trusts the promises of the Croatian authorities?
Not really, because the practice does not back up the words. During our visits to Zagreb president Tudman was very co-operative and showed much more understanding than some lower rank politicians. He has a better vision of the whole situation, probably because he has a goal to conclude his historic mission as soon as possible, because of his health. I personally insisted with president Tudman to address the public and guarantee the safety of the local population, to address them as citizens and not as Croats, as he usually does. He must declare that there will be no revenge here, that there will be no vigilante "justice". He must say that.
What was his response?
He said that he would issue a statement of that kind at the next session of the National Security Council (VONS) and that he was willing to help.
General Klein has on several occasions talked about the extremists on both sides who are an obstacle to peaceful reintegration. Who are the extremists on the Croatian side?
There are a few people in the neighborhood who scare the people here. Above all Mercep and Glavas, people who are now politicians and whose message I don't understand. They do not follow the official Croatian policy, unless that is a part of that policy. Their public appearances are very harmful. For example Glavas stated that he would come here in a bulldozer and destroy a graveyard in which Serb victims from Vukovar are buried; that graveyard is a symbol of something in this region. Now, the poor parents of those 24 wretches are supposed to dig out their corpses and take them somewhere else? It is definitely not sensible for someone to say that he will come here and destroy a graveyard. We can discuss all victims from Vukovar; he could have suggested that the graveyard be moved. Or 24 Croat heroes could be buried next to that graveyard. We must think like that; if we try to solve problems with bulldozers, that's the end of peaceful reintegration.
I'll start with easier things: Croatian currency, Kuna, is already used in the region. It was hard to introduce that, but we've made progress. The Croatian flag will arrive to this region very soon. It is hard to tell whether people will show respect to the Croatian anthem. That's the reality which is difficult to accept, but, little by little, people are resigning themselves to it. The Croatian documents were also a problem for people, but they accepted them. You know why it is a problem for the Serbs: all those symbols remind them of NDH [Croatian fascist puppet state during W.W.II which tried to exterminate Serbs living on its territory]; the Serbs see in those symbols a tendency of return to those times. That has always been a problem, regardless of the fact that during socialism Croatian documents also had a checkerboard shield, with a red star though. However, when all this started, is became a problem and people noticed that. Now, the problem is how to overcome that. But things change. Facing the reality, people realize that both dinar and Kuna are simply a currency.