"Which one of you two is from Split? You? Excellent, sit here! And you?" he turned towards my UNTAES escort, born in Belgrade [Serbia]. "From Belgrade? What are you doing here? Get lost! He stays here, and you can wait outside. Common, beat it!"
After he threw out my escort, Leskovac turned towards me:
I can't stand Belgrade. First they forced us to bark like dogs and then they said that we were rabid. I'm often angry with people here. I don't understand how easily they allowed to be used. I'm an educated person, and even I was misled.
By whom?
By Serb politics. Our limitless love towards Serbia was shamelessly used. After all this, I'd never live in Serbia. I told my family not to bury me in Serbia. Because, that very same Serbia, which I respected as a religious icon, abused my love.
Can you tell us where the western borders of Serbia are?
That story about borders is ridiculous. Both Karlovac and yours Zemun, all that is unrealistic.
Did it seem unrealistic in 1991?
I must admit that in 1991 I was convinced that this territory shouldn't belong to Croatia. I believed that local Serbs should have a right to remain in Yugoslavia.
Are you nostalgic for old Yugoslavia?
No, I never supported the concept of Yugoslavia. I wanted a Serb national state, as Croats wanted a Croatian national state. I must admit that at first I couldn't understand the desire of Croats to have their own national state. Today, after five years, I understand everything.
What in particular?
I understand that Serbia conducted imperialist policy with respect to Croatia.
Did I hear you well: a Serb radical admits that Serbia conducted imperialist policy with respect to Croatia?
Absolutely correct! And not only now, but throughout the history of Yugoslavia. Today, I have a totally different view of "Croatian spring". Today I understand that Slavka Dabcevic-Kucar as a good economist realized that the way in which earnings were divided in the former Yugoslavia was unjust. I am realistic. Croats decided to form their own state and they did. You can now say whatever you like about Tudman and HDZ and it is true that there are lot of elements of autocracy and one-party system. But it is also true that Tudman gave you a state. What else do you want from him?
In 1991 you organized volunteer units?
That is true. That will probably be mentioned a lot in the future. At the time, I had good relations with Seselj and believed that my method was right. My goal was a Serb national state. There were a lot of volunteers among Croats, too. Today, you have six generals who came from abroad at the start of the war. Large number of people in your leadership belonged to Croatian Liberation Movement and Croatian Ustashe emigrants. However, I have to say something very important: Serbian policy and Slobodan Milosevic are behind volunteer units. In that whole story, I ended up being a local washing machine for Milosevic's dirty laundry.
You sound much more conciliatory than in 1991?
I changed my opinions about many things during these five years. I think that's normal. I don't want this conversation to be some sort of repentance, because it isn't. If you write that you went to Vukovar and talked with a former Chetnik who walked around his office and cried over his destiny, that wouldn't be honest. I have nothing to be ashamed of, I don't need clemency.
How do you see future developments in the Danube valley?
This region should be reintegrated in Croatia, but it should keep its unique character. Have in mind: there are no more Serbs in Croatia, we were banished. You can say that no one forced me to leave Osijek and that would be correct: no one came to my door and said "get lost, you are a Serb". On the other hand, my restaurant was demolished, a bomb was thrown in my house, and I didn't feel safe any more. That is how Serbs left other parts of Croatia. We are the last Serb oasis in Croatia.
This was a historic defeat of the Serb people which doesn't compare to anything else in history. Croats got their state, Slovenians theirs, even Izetbegovic succeeded in making some sort of a state. Only Serbs don't have a national state!
So, what are you going to do now?
We'll live. Germans survived after Hitler. Serbs are tough people.
Will you be able to live with Croats?
It would be ridiculous to talk about some great love between Serbs and Croats. Croats are Croats and we are Serbs. I am a Serb and you are a Croat. I can have the same kind of relation as with an Englishman, Frenchman or a Russian. Respectful relations in culture, sport and business. Hopefully, that is clear.
And if by some strange coincidence I fall in love with your daughter and she falls in love with me...
And my grandson is named Ante?
Exactly.
Look, if your president could have a grandson named Sinisa, why shouldn't I have a grandson named Ante? Why should I be any different from Tudman?
Already signed agreements must be respected, above all the Dayton and Erdut agreements. That means that this region should be a part of Croatia, but that we [Serbs] should have some form of autonomy. That all refugees return to their homes and consequently conditions for peaceful re-integration are reached, in about ten years.
How many years?!?
Listen, that's realistic. Certain time must pass, at least a generation, before Croat refugees can return. Even children need time to make up after a fight, let alone us, after what happened here in Vukovar. People need time to forget.
What do you mean "to forget"?
I am talking about hate. People need to stop to hate each other, only then we can live together. I think that Serb people will need less time to stop hating than the Croats.
Because we are a genocidal nation?
No, that's nonsense. Simply because your media are full of hate for Serbs. For Croatian state-controlled media all Serbs are Chetniks. What makes me a Chetnik?
Vukovar is in Croatia. What kind of autonomy do you want?
Six months ago, I prepared a Request for Political Autonomy which was supposed to be an initial document for negotiations with the Croatian government. I took the Alan islands, which belong to Finland but are populated by Sweedish minority, as a model. Sweedish minority has a total autonomy, including their own currency. I thought that this model could be applied here.
How do you imagine that "chain of islands"?
We demand that all Serbs in this region have an option not to serve mandatory military service in the Croatian army. We want that this territory be totally demilitarized. We want to be an English Singapore or European Cyprus.
Alan islands, Singapore, Cyprus, anything but a part of Croatia?
No, we simply want to have a special status within Croatia.
How do you see the recent visit by the expelled Croats to their cemeteries on the Day of Dead?
There is nothing unusual with people visiting, lighting candles, but they shouldn't have brought wreaths with the checkerboard [Croatian coat of arms]. That doesn't make sense, it is simply a provocation: what if I came to Zagreb with four eagles [Serb symbol]?
Since you consider display of the Croatian coat of arms on this territory a provocation, does that mean that you do not recognize the jurisdiction of Croatian authorities over this territory?
Croatian flag can fly in Vukovar only next to a Serb flag. Only in that case Serb people could accept it, despite all the crimes which were committed against the Serbs in W.W.II. under that flag.
Let us ignore W.W.II for now. Let me repeat my question: does it mean that you don't recognize Croatian authorities?
No, it doesn't mean that. We simply do not want to end up like Serbs from Krajina.
As the mayor of Vukovar, you probably have a message for the expelled inhabitants of your city who currently live in more than 570 locations all over Croatia?
Believe me, I absolutely understand their suffering and problems. I plead with them to understand our situation and assist in the process of return of all refugees to their homes, because that is the only way to realize conditions for their return to Vukovar.