Karadzic strictly follows the ban from the Dayton Agreement and does not appear in public, nor is he politically active. The interview which lasted for almost four hours was therefore with a private individual accused of war crimes, who has the right to defend himself.
Rob Siebelink and Vella Libasic, Dutch journalists from "Drentse Courant" interviewed Karadzic in a peaceful, pre-holiday atmosphere of the Karadzic household in Pale. We will reprint parts from that interview in several installments during the following few days.
Are you afraid that the International Community could arrest you?
No, I don't think about that at all.
Is that possible in practice?
Anyone can be arrested. It is possible to arrest and kill anyone. It would be better for them to kill me than to let me go to the Hague. In the Hague, they would have far more problems with me...
Franjo Tudman has ethnically cleansed Croatia. His army has committed mass crimes against Serb population. Izetbegovic has ethnically cleansed major Bosnian cities. His soldiers have also committed horrible crimes against Serb population. East Bosnia, for example, provides a lot of convincing evidence for Izetbegovic's guilt. Would you go to the Hague, if Izetbegovic and Tudman were also indicted?
If I had trust in that Court, why not? If the court were truly neutral, if it didn't discriminate [against Serbs]. If it wasn't a political instrument of the Security Council which didn't have an authority to establish the Tribunal in the first place. If, if, if.... There are a lot of ifs. If these problems were resolved I would be prepared to turn myself in immediately.
Only if I allow him, and that is very, very important, adds Karadzic's wife.
Is it true that you have been to Sarajevo in spite of all NATO patrols?
Yes, I've been to Sarajevo.
Who provided protection for your visit? SFOR?
No. I went with my personal security guards. On the way back I went through muslim territory. I could have taken a different route, but it was more fun that way. It was six o'clock in the morning. The muslims were asleep. SFOR, naturally, didn't know anything about my trip.
(...)
Croats and Serbs negotiated very often during the war in order to allow each other to cross over their respective territories and facilitate population movements. There wasn't a lot of killing among Serbs and Croats in Bosnia. Both nations were aware of what happened during W.W.II in Bosnia. Unexpectedly, the most cruel side in this war were the muslims.
What is your explanation for that?
In the previous war [W.W.II] muslims fought for the Croat state (NDH [Croat
fascist puppet state which covered most of Croatia, Bosnia-Hercegovina and a
part of Serbia]). In this war they fought, for the first time, for their own
state. They were extremely cruel and brutal towards Serbs. Towards the Croats
as well; they were trying to ethnically cleanse the whole territory... The
International Community knows well the truth about it all, but has instead
chosen to keep quiet and accuse Serbs...
Serbs also killed and expelled people. I am deeply saddened because of all that
killing done by the Serb side. But it wasn't, as we are accused, our policy.
Our regular army units didn't do that. As early as June 13 1992 I issued
an order for strict observance of all international humanitarian norms...
Karadzic told the Dutch journalists that none of the Serb regular units took part in ethnic cleansing. He takes Prijedor as an example; there, armed, self-organized groups fought bloody battles.
At the time [of fighting in Prijedor] we didn't even have a phone link with the
city. Do not forget that these were the same people who fought in W.W.II.
There were no police nor military forces there. For a month, only civilian and
paramilitary forces fought. Literally, it was a civil war. Civilians
against civilians. Many people died.
However, the world received a distorted picture of the events in Prijedor.
For example, Penny Marshal (reporter with ITN who released that fake story
about Trnopolje being a concentration camp) was there. Trnopolje was a camp
established by the muslim refugees. They wanted to gather at one spot where
our forces could protect them. They could come and leave the camp whenever they
wanted. Our forces protected and fed them. Yes, Prijedor was a bloody battlefield,
because Muslims wanted to occupy it... Recently Holbrooke insisted that Muslims
and Croats be given Prijedor.
Why was the fighting so intense in Prijedor?
Because of approximate balance in the ethnic composition of the city. In places
where there were, for example, 20 percent of one ethnic group, as was the
case with Serbs in Zenica, the minority escaped to avoid clashes and massacres.
In Trebinje, muslims were 14 percent of the population. They escaped.
Thus, minority ran away; it wasn't ethnic cleansing for which only Serbs were
blamed. People even begged to be allowed to cross the lines and escape...
There was a lot of suffering in Prijedor during W.W.II. In that area partisans fought
against the Nazis. There were no "Chetniks". Sons of those murdered partisans said
"never again"...
Before May 20 (1992) we had no armed forces. In May, when we appointed
Mladic for a commander, he was a general without an army. I ordered then that
all armed groups be put under his command; all paramilitary forces became illegal
and UN Secretary General Boutros Ghali was informed about that.
Three days after that order, all Serb paramilitary groups were treated as criminals.
We couldn't be responsible, as we are accused now, for all they had done before
that date. Because, later we arrested and prosecuted [the members of irregular
forces]. I can even accept that infamous "objective responsibility" for the
things done by our military, but not for the things done by independent
paramilitary groups. During the war our courts sentenced five thousand persons
for the crimes committed against muslims, and I was even accused of treason because
I released some muslims, because I worried that they may be treated unfairly.
We had no political prisoners. No death penalty. Muslims did.
If there were crimes in this war, someone must be responsible for them?
Of course there were crimes on the Serb side. However, from these documents
you can see that I forbade all crimes, prosecuted and punished criminals. Most
crimes were committed by the individuals who were seeking revenge. For example, I had
problems trying to impose orders for cease fire when our soldiers were 50 meters
away from their homes and their families (which were under muslim control).
I would order a cease fire to Mladic (which had been previously agreed with muslims),
and the soldiers would rebel: "Why now when we are in front of our homes? We shall not
stop!"
So they continue for another hundred meters, the cease fire fails... Then, I punish
them, and today I'm being accused by the Hague Tribunal. Nevertheless, I am
responsible for my orders. I can be even held responsible for the orders I failed
to issue. However, I did everything in my power to prevent crimes and made
each commander responsible for his soldiers and individual soldiers for their own crimes.
Ii was my duty to prosecute and punish.
Of course, it is absurd to expect that I could know about every single crime
and catch every culprit. During the war my courts sentenced five thousand Serbs.
Recently it was brought to my notice, that I had appointed seventeen muslims
and one Croat as judges and public prosecutors at all levels during the war.
At the time I didn't even think that that may be important in the future. I did
all that based on my personal values, in order to have multiethnic authorities
and protect muslim ethnic minority. No one made me issue those orders. I wasn't
even thinking about the Hague Tribunal, because in 1992 the Tribunal hadn't been
established.
You cannot be prosecuted for the crimes committed by civilians. Nevertheless, do you feel guilty for the crimes committed by soldiers?
No, absolutely not. Because, not only that no one among the civilian and military authorities had ordered crimes, but we actually had issued orders that the crimes not be done. This was a civil war, civilians fought civilians and that was a problem. Neither the Army nor police took part in that. As I said, there were a few cases in which soldiers committed crimes, but those were individuals, it wasn't our policy. Therefore, there is no "objective responsibility". There is only "subjective responsibility" and those who have committed crimes should be prosecuted.
What about Sarajevo?
At any time, there were between 15,000 and 30,000 muslim soldiers in Sarajevo
and they kept attacking the Serb part of the city and our positions around the city.
General Mckenzie has said that he had never seen an Army using hospitals and
schools as artillery posts [as did muslims in Sarajevo]. They bombarded us
from everywhere. They had two trucks which drove mortars around the city. They would
shoot at us from one spot and then run away somewhere else. We didn't respond
until they would get close to our positions...
My commanders around the city didn't need specific orders; they had a right to
shoot. A refugee from Sarajevo said that as soon as they had heard muslim
artillery shooting they ran to shelters because they were aware that we would
start shooting back in ten minutes...
Were Merkale also a provocation?
Today everyone knows that muslims did that. The United Nations know that
but they won't tell the truth.
Even now, they had planted explosives before the Pope's visit and accused Serbs for that.
When they needed that, they shot down an Italian plane deep in muslim controlled
territory. And we were slapped with no fly zone. After Merkale, we were bombed.
After that bread queue, sanctions.
They committed many other massacres. They bombed many cities. They always did that
before a visit by some foreign dignitary.
You ordered the attack on the safe zone in Srebrenica?
Srebrenica has never been a safe zone.
What do you mean?
It has never been a safe zone. If you don't trust me, ask former UN Secretary General, Boutros Ghali. He admitted on several occasions that Srebrenica is a muslim military stronghold and that Serb villages around Srebrenica had continuously been attacked from the enclave. During the last month of the existence of the enclave, every day at least one Serb died in muslim attacks. All together, 1260 Serbs were killed. UN knows about that. The commander of Dutch peacekeeping troops in Srebrenica also knows that.
Karadzic pulled out a whole sheaf of documents, a long list of Serb victims around Srebrenica. March, April, May, June 1992. Just killing.
This document is the order by the commander of Srebrenica, Naser Oric, for a commando raid with names of those who were supposed to carry it out. They were decorated; instead they should have been shot for war crimes... Here are religious instructions of the Islamic religious authorities to the troops before fighting.
Certainly, you're not implying that that is a war crime? Other armies do that as well?
Of course, that is not a war crime, but it demonstrates that [for muslims]
this was a holly war, Jihad.
In any case, we have a lot of documents which show that a whole division was based
in Srebrenica. Four brigades, 280th, 281st, 283rd and 284th (plus one more in Zepa)
made up an operative group in Srebrenica which was a part of the Tuzla Second Corps.
Therefore, Srebrenica was not a demilitarized zone as the decision about the establishment
of the "safe zones" demands. It was vital for their Army to keep attacking
us from Srebrenica. Because of that, we had to keep large forces around Srebrenica
to defend ourselves and couldn't use those troops in Sarajevo.
So, you gave an order to attack Srebrenica?
No, my order wasn't necessary. There was a permanent order for attack. Our forces were supposed to respond to every muslim attack by counterattacking. That's what happened in 1994. We started a counterattack and suddenly we had an opportunity to enter Srebrenica. Later, it turned out that Izetbegovic had ordered his army to leave the enclave. Their representative in Srebrenica Ibran Mustafic confirmed that. He said, and I quote: "Izetbegovic ordered us to leave Srebrenica, in order to show that the Serbs have threatened a safe area".
You claim that your army entered Srebrenica by chance?
Well, it definitely wasn't a planned attack. Nor had we had to bring new
troops there. Our problem had been that we had to fight with a small number of people
on a very long front line.
In Srebrenica there were 9,000 muslim soldiers. We needed 40,000 people to push
them out of there. We didn't have those people. When we took Srebrenica, it
was as much of a surprise for us as for anyone else. Their attack provoked a counterattack,
and we should thank Mr. Izetbegovic for our military success. He surrendered Srebrenica
in order to move troops to Sarajevo and cause an international military intervention.
He succeeded in that.
In that case, how come you're accused of killing so many people?
Nine thousands muslim soldiers left the enclave and tried to break through
our lines towards Tuzla. Three weeks later, they were still fighting around Srebrenica!
Nine thousand soldiers is a lot of troops. They pushed towards their lines and
our troops followed.
They had to break through our fortified lines. The fighting was horrible. At one place
50 our soldiers were killed although they were in trenches. You can guess yourself
how many muslim soldiers died while attacking.
They finally managed to break through to Tuzla, but the fighting was horrible.
Their officers simply sacrificed their soldiers. A proof is that we didn't manage
to capture any higher and middle ranking officers. On the other
hand, the soldiers attacked like ants.
(...)
Do you support what Mladic did in Srebrenica?
I don't know what you mean? I know him as a very strict man. I may disagree with him on some issues, which is not important for this conversation. But, regarding morality, Mladic is very strict. He would personally destroy any soldier who raped or committed a crime. He is a moral and honorable man. One may not agree with him and tell him that he is a communist, but there is no way that Mladic would tolerate, or order someone to commit a crime.
But, general Mladic is accused of being responsible for mass crimes against muslims after the capture of Srebrenica?
Well, I do know, and you must have heard that as well, that Erdemovic who has been sentenced in the Hague, stated at his trial that the Serb military had issued a strict order that civilians be spared and that all [Serb] soldiers must behave according to the international humanitarian law and the Geneva convention. That was said in the Hague and Erdemovic gave wide ranging statements regarding the events in Srebrenica. He said: "I know that the command warned us to treat civilians and war prisoners according to the rules and be humane".
No one is denying that there were individual crimes on the Serb side. Nonetheless, no one can credibly claim that these crimes were a result of the Serb leadership's policy.
Here is an example. While investigating what really took place in Srebrenica, surrounded by the media fog in which lies, mythomania, and truths met each other, I interviewed a number of direct participants in the events [in Srebrenica]. The testimony by M.R., member of the Republic of Srpska Army who participated in the capture of Srebrenica is typical for most of them.
"They woke us up around midnight. They said, get up, get in truck, straight to Srebrenica. 'What are we going to do there?', I asked. The commander responded 'you'll see when we get there'.
"When we arrived, Srebrenica had already fallen, and thousands of muslim prisoners were there. I was ordered to escort a bus full of muslim prisoners. There was a full bus of them and I was alone. I they wanted, they could have killed me with bare hands... Then, I spotted two guys from my village (gives the name of the village). They were in the group which burned down my house, raped my sister, and killed my mother. I took them out of the bus and killed them right there, those Turkish motherfuckers..."
"How did you dare do that?" asked the interrogator. "Why not? Who's going to touch me because of that?" "Where there more cases like that?" "Of course!" "Was anyone punished because of that?" "I don't know. I got my revenge."
Most of the prisoners in Srebrenica, soldiers from the Eight Operative Group, took part in the muslim devastation and slaughter in east Bosnia in 1992 and later. The commander of the Operative Group was the war criminal Naser Oric who had been promoted to a brigadier and decorated by Izetbegovic with the highest decoration in the muslim Army "Golden Lilly".
Our soldiers were never decorated for crimes. We do not decorate our criminals. We try them, said Karadzic.
(...)
Slaughter of Serb population in [east Bosnia] was directed and implemented from Srebrenica where Alija Izetbegovic's brigadier, the true war criminal Naser Oric, was in charge; still until today no one has been indicted by the International War Crimes Tribunal for these crimes.
In any case, until the fall of the enclave on July 11 1995 Srebrenica was a military base from which muslims raided Serb villages, burned and slaughtered the population.
When did you find out about the fall of Srebrenica?
I didn't receive any news during the operation. I was informed about the fall of the enclave after our troops had entered Srebrenica. My first question was what had happened with the civilians and about the military situation. The order was that everyone must follow humanitarian norms and conventions. The civilians were given a choice to stay or leave the enclave. They were given all guarantees. Mladic told them so himself. They chose to leave and the evacuation was based on an agreement between our and their civilian representatives. We signed an agreement in the presence of the Dutch officer in charge of the UN peace keeping troops in Srebrenica... Let me repeat one more time: Serb military and civilian authorities didn't do anything wrong. If something happened, it was done on individual basis, and the motive was revenge.
How many killed have the investigators from the Hague found so far?
Elisabeth Rehn cruised around Srebrenica, investigated and photographed using
the best equipment and she found at one spot 500 muslim soldiers who had been killed
by our artillery. None of us had known about that. Many muslim soldiers were
killed in our trenches. They tried to break through our lines, jumped into our
trenches and perished. We also had a lot of casualties.
We invited them to surrender. We wanted to exchange them for our men held
by muslims. They refused to surrender.
They now claim to have lost eight thousand people in Srebrenica. Every
soldier who had disappeared during this one and previous actions is included in
this number. They also included those who had died in 1992 and 1993. They
put all these casualties on the list of disappeared in Srebrenica...
Where are those mass graves about which they talk all the time? They haven't found
them. They have used satellite photographs, investigated with special instruments
and haven't found anything.
Novosti are in possession of an official document which demonstrates how much the quoted number of muslim victims in Srebrenica is wrong and blown out of proportion. We have the official list of the International Red Cross with the names of dead and disappeared from Srebrenica. Three thousands and sixteen (3,016) names from that list are also on the list of eligible voters for the forthcoming local elections in Srebrenica!
Karadzic mentioned documents with examples of feuds among muslims, showdowns and executions in Srebrenica. Mladic's soldiers are blamed for those victims as well. The official documents of the Eight Operative Group based in Srebrenica were found by the Serbs after the capture of the enclave. Among the documents are complaints of a group of officers to the Supreme Command of the Bosnian Army regarding the crime and terror inflicted on the local population by Naser Oric and his bullies.
Novosti has also obtained video material with a moving testimony of two young muslim women who had been raped several times by Naser Oric's officers and soldiers before the Serb Army captured the town.
With the help of monstrous alchemy of Western politics and media Alija Izetbegovic has been transformed into a symbol of multiethnic tolerance while the Serb leadership has been turned into Nazi devils and executors of a genocide.
However, Karadzic reminds us that " today everyone knows that during W.W.II Izetbegovic wore a German uniform. Before the start of the war in Bosnia, Izetbegovic wrote a book in which he said that Bosnia should become a muslim Islamic state. There can be no mistake about it, his words were clear."
Alija Izetbegovic is a direct product of an early muslim idea about independent Bosnian caliphate which, if Hitler hadn't been defeated, was to have been established with the assistance of Nazi Germany on the ruins of other peoples in Bosnia, above all Serbs and Jews.
To our readers, but also judges in the Hague, we present a document which speaks for itself. It is the "Memorandum of the National Muslim Committee" which was sent to Adolph Hitler on November 1 1942. In the document which starts with words "Our dear leader", mentors and spiritual fathers of Alija Izetbegovic first complained to the Fuhrer that muslims had been persecuted just before the start of W.W.II (1939) because Serbs and Croats (?) had accused them of being a fifth column "only because we desired and worked to ease the German destruction of Yugoslavia."!
After explaining to Adolph Hitler that muslims have nothing to do with the lower Slavic race and that they are Aryans (!?), actually Goths which in third century AD migrated to Illyria, the authors of the Memorandum outline their requests. First they request that the area of operations of the muslim "Bosnian Legion" under command of major Muhamed Hadziefendic be increased. The Legion would be renamed to "Bosnian Sentry" and would encompass all muslim military formations apart from the volunteers of the famous 13th SS "Hanjar Division" which was at the time on the eastern front fighting the Soviet Army. "Bosnian Sentry" would be supplied, armed and commanded by the German Army. The sixth request to Hitler states: "On this territory (muslim, separate from NDH) 'Zupa Bosna' would be formed with its capital in Sarajevo. Its chief would be named exclusively by Hitler".
"Bosniak-muslims are a part of the 300-million Islamic nation from the East, which can achieve its liberation only in the struggle against English imperialism, world Jewry, Free Masons and Bolshevism, led by the German people under the leadership of its Fuhrer," continue Izetbegovic's spiritual fathers, complaining to Hitler that Croats cheated them in NDH and took all power for themselves.
"National Committee", then informs Hitler that "in spite of anti-muslim attitude" of the so called Black Mafia (Croatian Catholic church) the volunteers from NDH on the Eastern front are actually muslims "whose example was followed by muslim men and women who had gone to work as volunteers in Germany to prove their trust and love for the German people".
Trying to please Hitler, the authors of the Memorandum, Uzeir Hadzihasanovic, Mustafa Softic (mayor of Sarajevo at the time) and Suljaga Salihagic (Banja Luka) write: "We, Bosnian muslims do not express loyalty to the German people because of current interests. Although we live in this country where the majority population is of Slavic origin, although we speak Bosnian language which is similar to Serbo-Croatian, racially and by blood we are not Slavs, but hail from Goths. We Bosniaks came to the Balkans in third century AD as a Germanic tribe..."
To allay any doubts Hitler may have, he is informed that "Slavs arrived to our land in sixth century" and that anthropological differences between newly arrived Slavs and muslim "Goths" are still obvious. Apparently, 90 percent of Bosniaks have "thin, blond hair, blue eyes and fair complexion" while 80 percent of Serbs and Croats have "thick black hair, black eyes and dark complexion". Also, "Bosniaks are known as people of open character while Slavs are prone to be enslaved by others"!
Hitler was a criminal, but he wasn't a fool. He never replied to the Memorandum.
Today, Alija Izetbegovic, who at the time wore Hitler's uniform, and who is the direct heir of the "National Committee" and who during the war took from the Memorandum the thesis about being a part of the Caliphate (Mujahideen, Islamic money, arms etc.) has become an American ally. All has been forgotten. Karadzic, a royalist, democrat and Christian believer, becomes [in the eyes of West] everything that Izetbegovic has been and still truly remains today.
Can you explain the crime of hostage taking during the war?
What do you mean, "hostage taking"? Based on all applicable definitions, only civilians can be hostages. These captives were not civilians.
But they were UN soldiers, military observers and you used them as live shields?
They were soldiers whose command had ordered that Serbs be bombed. See these
two fingers on my hand? I am in charge of both. One is a UN observer while
the other one bombs my positions. Legal theory gives a precise definition of
an hostage. Armed soldiers who directly participate in an attack are not hostages.
Only civilians can be hostages.
NATO gave orders and the observers were guiding bombers to their targets. Everyone
knows that the observers were a part of the attack. They made the request for
bombardment, took part in it and thus lost the status of neutral forces and consequently,
the status of an hostage.
Still, was that a politically wise move? The reaction was terrifying and later no one trusted Serbs.
That was not a political action. It was a military action whose goal was to protect and save our people. Don't forget, NATO was bombing us at the time...
So, you have no regrets regarding hostage taking?
I have regrets regarding everything. I am sorry that the war happened in the first place. Had my proposals been accepted, the war would have never happened. The others should have regrets.
I wanted Yugoslavia to survive. Yugoslavia was a country in which it was possible to lead a pleasant life.
Was it possible to avoid the war?
We did everything in our power to avoid the outbreak of a war in Bosnia. There
is a lot of evidence for that. We accepted Lisbon agreement, European plan for
a division. I accepted Vance-Owen plan in Athens. True, the plan was later
rejected by our parliament, but it is a fact that I had accepted it...
I even later accepted Bosnia's secession from Yugoslavia. That was the greatest
risk I have ever taken in my life. After that decision, Serbs became an ethnic
minority in their own country. Nevertheless, I accepted that to avoid war.
The saddest thing in all this is that the Lisbon Agreement was very similar
to the Dayton Agreement which was accepted four years later. Why did we fight
during those four years then?
Muslims accepted the Lisbon Agreement. Croats and us as well. Then muslims rejected
the agreement based on the instructions by USA ambassador in Yugoslavia
Warren Zimmermann and Van Der Bruck [E.U. foreign affairs commissioner at the time].
They knew that a war was unavoidable if Bosnia's independence was recognized
before an agreement was reached. They are responsible for everything that
followed.
When did you realize that war was unavoidable?
It started with the independence referendum. That was an unconstitutional,
illegal act because all matters of crucial importance to main ethnic groups
had to be resolved based on consensus, not by majority vote. Two days after the
referendum there was an armed attack on a Serb wedding procession in
down-town Sarajevo. Nonetheless, the real cause for the war was Izetbegovic's
decision to call for mobilization on April 4 1992. According to the Constitution,
he couldn't do that without an agreement of the Serb side; regardless, he did it.
I phoned him and told him he was doing a terrible mistake. I asked him:" Why
did you do it? You know what will happen once muslims get arms. Croats will
also get armed. You know how Serbs will react to that?"
He agreed, but added that it was to late to rescind the decision. That night,
between April 4 and 5, marked the outbreak of violence in Sarajevo.
Muslims started the war and there was nothing we could do to stop it.
Yet, muslims point out that they also had reasons to be afraid. There were afraid of the Yugoslav Peoples Army.
We couldn't trust YPA. They tried from time to time to insert their troops
between us and muslims, but they rarely assisted us. The YPA troops were also
being attacked by muslims and were mostly preoccupied by how to pull out of Bosnia.
Furthermore, their view of us was that we were nationalists and anti-Communists.
For them, there was no difference between Izetbegovic, Tudman, and Karadzic.
As far as we are concerned, we didn't have an army during the first few months of
the war. On May 20 1992, YPA withdrew from Bosnia. That's when we formed a command
structure. I was elected for president of the Bosnian Serbs on May 12 and even later
Mladic was appointed the commander of the Bosnian Serb Army. But, at the time
he was a general without an army. We needed all the time until the end of 1992 to
take full control of all sorts of armed groups which fought all over Bosnia. My
first order upon assuming office was that paramilitary formations be disbanded.
That was supposed to happen three days after the order had been issued (June 13
1992). Otherwise, those groups became illegal and their members were treated as
criminals.
Yet, killing and ethnic cleansing were in full swing at the time?
Of course. But ethnic cleansing was not the result of our policy. From the very
beginning, war crimes were strictly banned. I repeated my orders regarding war
crimes several times during the war. I am certain that field commanders didn't
allow crimes, let alone ordered that crimes be committed.
I can take full responsibility for everything done by our Army and police, but
I cannot be held responsible for what civilians did to each others. What they did
was simply the continuation of the events from W.W.II. Old fears and revenge
resurfaced in this war. It was simply chaotic and nothing more than that.
Those families which murdered during W.W.II started killing again. Conversely,
those whose families were victimized during W.W.II embarked on revenge. I didn't
support nor condone that. War criminals must face justice. All my orders were
issued with the goal of preventing war crimes and were very strict regarding that.
During the interview Karadzic repeated several times that he is as much of a Serb nationalist as an Englishman is an English nationalist, or a Frenchman a French nationalist. Although he was born in Montenegro, Karadzic insists that he is a "Serb from Bosnia".
Before the war our ethnic origin was not important. Yugoslavia was my country. In that country, me and my family were happy... I came to Bosnia aged fifteen. That was my deliberate choice because Sarajevo was closer to my birthplace than, for example, Belgrade. We loved Bosnia. Part of Montenegro where I was born had belonged to Bosnia during Turkish rule and had later been annexed by Montenegro.
Therefore you consider yourself to be a Bosnian rather than Montenegrin?
Yes. As I said, I am a Serb from Bosnia, and at the time Yugoslavia was my country. After me and my wife graduated in Sarajevo, we went to Zagreb to a Freudian school. Zagreb is a wonderful city. Although at the time a separatist movement in Zagreb was very strong.
Were you politically active at the time?
Not really. We were called Serb middle-class. It could be said that,
as an anti-Communist, I have been a dissident for 35 years...
Nevertheless, it was a great pleasure to live in Sarajevo. The city was pro-western,
and most muslims declared themselves to be Serbs, rather than Muslims. They are
Serbs who converted to Islam during Ottoman rule. Most of them were pro-Yugoslav,
because national unity was at the time more important then religious differences.
Today everything has been turned upside down. Muslims today deny that there is any
connection between them and Serbs.
Then, the war arrived. First, there was a referendum, then a bloodbath...?
Croatian president Tudman led a fierce campaign during 1990 elections in Bosnia.
Then he and Izetbegovic became allies; the message was clear. They weren't allies
against Germans nor Russians. They formed an alliance against the Serb people.
All Serbs were deadly afraid of the repetition of crimes from W.W.II when
hundreds of thousands of Serbs were slaughtered and murdered.
That's why we decided to form a Serb political party. We decided that Serb people
in Bosnia needed political protection... At the time I wasn't a politician.
I led a happy life. My family was a happy family. My wife and I had successful
practice and enough money.
(..)
Karadzic carries a heavy burden, but with colossal peace. I've had that impression confirmed on several occasions, most recently during that farce with his alleged depression and desire to turn himself in to the Hague Tribunal. None of that is true. He is firmly grounded.
As far as the Hague is concerned there are no obstacles to Karadzic as he says "putting himself at anyone's disposal", but only once the Tribunal stops being a judicial farce under direct American control and becomes a truly independent Tribunal.