interview by Nerzuk CURAK
PERINOVIC: I practically founded HDZ BH and was its first president. My dismissal was organized from Zagreb. You probably know that there were several attempts. The first one took place in Skenderija, on August 18, 1990, at the founding congress of the party. However, I was elected there, practically unanimously, although I demanded to have an opposing candidate. The delegation visiting from Zagreb naturally eagerly supported my idea. They demanded that anyone able to collect 100 signatures in his support at the congress should be allowed to run for the president of the party. I reduced that number to 50 signatures. But, no one else managed to collect 50 signatures, so that that attempt failed. The second attempt to depose Davor Perinovic was in the Mostar Cathedral. That took place on December 5, 1990. They probably thought that they would have an easier job in Hercegovina. A priest, Anto Bakovic, was sent from Zagreb to coordinate the whole action. However, they failed then as well, since even at that time, although now that sounds like a paradox, most of branches from Western Hercegovina supported me. Even then, manipulations with my ethnic background failed.
DANI: How were you replaced in the end?
PERINOVIC: When Zagreb saw that they could not replace me anywhere on the territory of Bosnia-Hercegovina, they issued the order that everyone should come to Zagreb, to the Globus Hall at the Zagreb Fairground, where the decision about my dismissal was supposed to be made. That meeting began on September 6, at ten in the morning and ended on September 7, at 2am. My good friend, late Blaz Kraljevic, had the full documentation about the events of that day. That meeting in Zagreb was totally against the bylaws of the party, since representatives of all branches of the HDZ should have been there. However, most branches from the Bosnian Sava Valley region and central Bosnia were not represented there, let alone at the time numerous branches from east Bosnia, all of whom boycotted the meeting. However, the meeting started without a quorum and, besides, that meeting was practically on the territory of another state. For comparison, imagine that a decision about a head of a Swiss or Austrian party is made on German territory. However, that did not at all prevent Tudman and his crowd from starting that meeting. What else is interesting? The fact that the meeting lasted so long, because representatives refused to vote against me. Only recently, in Australia, I found out what exactly was happening on that meeting.
DANI: So, what was it?
PERINOVIC: Using, let me use the old Communist term, alienated power centers, certain structures from the KOS [counter intelligence service of the former Yugoslavia] that were partly under Tudman's control, they managed to find my notorious birth certificate. Then Tudman took that birth certificate and openly said that it is a crime to belong to the Serb Orthodox Church, or be an Eastern Orthodox believer. He was waving with that birth certificate and said that everyone voting for me would be voting for the Orthodoxy and a Serb (although I do not think that those two terms are identical). Everyone voting for me would be proclaimed for a traitor of the Croatian nation. Then, people were forced, simply under threat of endangerment of, not only political and material, but also physical integrity, to vote against me. None of those who had previously supported me dared vote against my dismissal at this point.
DANI: Do you think that "unsuitable" ethnicity of your father is the reason for your fall?
PERINOVIC: I do not think so. Tudman has two grandsons. Both of them are citizens of Serbia. His [former] son-in-law is a Serb. I can tell you that most officials of the HDZ were either married to Serb women or hail from mixed marriages, so that I think that Tudman used that argument to somehow win over the most militant Ustashe from western Hercegovina. But I was actually replaced because of Tudman's obsession with greater Croatia. Tudman kept telling me that it was crucial to divide Bosnia. Late Gojko Susak claimed that it was necessary to ignite a war in Bosnia-Hercegovina at all cost.
DANI: Did he ever tell you that in public?
PERINOVIC: Susak openly told me (he always referred to me as "Bosnian" in derogatory sense, although I do not see that as derogatory; I am proud of being Bosnian and I have always emphasized that everywhere): "What do you want, Bosnian, you think you'll get away without a war in Bosnia; well you won't, there will be a war in Bosnia as well". All of them kept telling me that. Also, there is one more reason that contributed to my dismissal, and that is that from the start I resisted all the attempts to ignite war in Bosnia-Hercegovina and to divide Bosnia-Hercegovina. Tudman had one more theory. Why did he do that? At the discussion in Narval in Canada, Tudman made a plan for that division and a de facto war in Bosnia with a group of Franciscans from western Hercegovina. His theory was, and Tudman personally repeated this to me on many occasions, that people from western Hercegovina are the true Croats and that Bosnian Croats are not really Croats, so that already at that time he had this theory that Bosnian Croats are second rate Croats within the Croatian national corpus. I, on the other hand, believed that in every democratic political party the principle of legality and proportional geographic representation should be respected, so that the first Chief Board of the HDZ had only 15 percent of members from western Hercegovina, as before the war they represented only 15 percent of Croats in Bosnia-Hercegovina. Out of about 750,000 Croats in Bosnia-Hercegovina, only about 150,000 lived in western Hercegovina. I was aware that the division of Bosnia would primarily hurt Croatian interests.
DANI: Based on this story, it would seem logical that someone more radical than you, rather than moderate Stjepan Kljuic would be appointed for a new leader of the HDZ...
PERINOVIC: Tudman must be credited with one thing, and that is that as a politician he was extremely sly. Kljuic was appointed instead of me by Zagreb and at first I viewed him as a component of the Zagreb policy. I am convinced that Tudman expected that Kljuic would follow instructions from Zagreb, especially faced with the example of what happened to Davor Perinovic because of his disobedience. By putting someone from western Hercegovina in my place, they would have revealed their true intentions. None of us, even in our private lives, ever fully reveals his or her intentions, so that Mr. Kljuic was supposed to serve as the HDZ cover for dirty work in Bosnia. Actually, when I refer to Zagreb, I am referring to western Hercegovina. What was actually taking place? Grude, Posusje, Listica, Duvno, all those towns [in western Hercegovina], were dictating to Zagreb, so that Zagreb actually followed orders from western Hercegovina and only implemented their wishes. Mr. Kljuic was used to hide their true intentions. However, later Mr. Kljuic turned out to be a true Bosnian and could not implement a different policy from the one that I had initiated. I think that it is fortunate that Mr. Kljuic was and remained a true Bosnian Croat, that he continued such policy, because I think that damages inflicted on Bosnia-Hercegovina would have been much worse had Mr. Kljuic become a mere executor of Zagreb's will and executed orders sent to Zagreb from Grude, Posusje, etc.
DANI: After your political demise in the HDZ, you shifted further to the right and joined the Croatian Party of Rights (HSP).
PERINOVIC: You know, the HSP can be considered as a rightist party based on its program. However, I did not join the HSP because of some conservative views, but because the HSP opposed the division of Bosnia-Hercegovina. The HSP, and especially Mr. Paraga, for whom I even today have a lot of respect, was aware of the consequences of a war in Bosnia-Hercegovina. Believe me, I and Mr. Paraga did everything in our power to prevent or at least postpone the outbreak of war in Bosnia-Hercegovina. We knew that our Bosnian people were not prepared for that war, not only physically, but simply psychologically, because of a mental structure that believed that war to be impossible. We went everywhere, to Germany, the US, we tried everything we could to prevent that war. Therefore, that is why I joined the HSP and stayed in the HSP as long as Mr. Paraga was its leader. After the changes in the HSP, when Ante Djapic took over the party as a pure advocate of the Hercegovina-HDZ policy, it became clear that my time in the HSP was over. I simply picked up and left.
DANI: Where did you go?
PERINOVIC: After my departure from the HSP, I tried to find a job in Zagreb as a physician of the Croatian Army. I left Sarajevo based on the recommendation of the U.S. Congress and Senate. They invited me for a visit so that I could present my views regarding the situation in Bosnia-Hercegovina. That happened late in March 1992. I've shown you all the documents about that visit to Washington D.C.; I had a full schedule for the visit and met important officials. Therefore, I went to the U.S. at their invitation. It may not be fair to state that the Americans trusted me, but at least they were prepared to listen to me. Namely, in the eighties, I was an American military physician. Until today I still have an American military identification card and they probably still have in their computers something nice recorded about me, so that they were prepared to listen to me as someone they had known from before. While I worked in an American military hospital, I treated and operated on the highest American civilian and military officials. My patients included high officials of the DIA and CIA, so that they would not give that identification card to anyone. But let me digress one more time: when I got a job at the American military hospital in Berlin I received the exception to policy approval. They made an exception. I was the only person from a socialist country who ever got a permission to work in an American military hospital. That happened in 1983-1984. Because of that I was invited to the U.S., to Washington D.C. I spent all together almost a month there. Of course, after my arrival to Washington, the tragedy in the homeland started. The aggression on Bosnia-Hercegovina started from two directions. You, as a journalist, know very well what happened in Zvornik and Bijeljina but, however, the second attack came via Kupres, from Croatia. I have heard the testimony of a young man who had been sent from Croatia (I spoke about this in an interview for Feral Tribune in 1994) to fight in Bosnia-Hercegovina. He gave details about how the attack on Kupres had been planned in Croatia and how the hell in Kupres had started. Therefore, we as a state were attacked from two directions, from two sides.
DANI: How was that attack on Kupres planned?
PERINOVIC: They sent a group of extremists. It is assumed that they had come from Australia and had been trained there. The attack on Kupres was supposed to worsen inter-ethnic tensions. Based on what I heard from the people who directly participated in that (therefore, I was not on the spot and have learned about this indirectly), there were common sentries of Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs in Kupres. Also they had an agreement not to attack each other. According to the testimonies I have heard, the group that attacked Kupres, carried out a massacre, both among the Croats and local Serbs. You know that at the time the Yugoslav People's Army was stationed on the Kupres plateau. They were simply waiting for a pretext. That pretext was provided in this manner and then evil started from the other side as well.
DANI: How do you know all this?
PERINOVIC: I can tell you that in the U.S. thanks to courtesy of the officials in the U.S. Congress, I had a chance to use their computer terminal and examine all the relevant information in connection with the beginning of the war in Bosnia-Hercegovina. Therefore, that was not the ordinary Internet, but absolutely all the information at their disposal. The information I got from that computer terminal pretty much confirmed what I had already known about those events. Therefore, at that time my goal was to assist Bosnia-Hercegovina that had been attacked. I repeat again: not by one but by two sides. There is no need to also mention internal troubles that exploded as a consequence. Therefore, it was in my interest to get the American public opinion as much involved as possible and to get the U.S. Congress and Senate to help Bosnia-Hercegovina. I had a series of meetings: several with Leon Fuerth, who remains until today one of the closest advisors to Al Gore, then with congressman Broomfield; I used my personal connections to meet senator Thurmond, who is the president of the Senate Armed Forces Committee; I also met with congressman Lipinski, and with Bob Dole the speaker of the Congress. I had discussions with many individuals, and the result of my efforts was the resolution of the U.S. Senate number 290/20 passed on April 9, 1992, which condemned the aggression, attack and the beginning of the war in Bosnia-Hercegovina. I am proud that this is the first resolution adopted by not only the U.S. Senate, but by any U.S. institution, or any other institution in the world that condemned the attack on Bosnia-Hercegovina. All of us are human and everyone is proud if he thinks to have done something good, something useful for Bosnia-Hercegovina, and I can tell you that I am really proud because I am aware that that was the result of my visit to the U.S., of my activities. You know very well how many of those who now claim to believe in Bosnia-Hercegovina wavered at the time; however, I openly at the time sided with my state Bosnia-Hercegovina and I am very proud of that. Otherwise, if I stayed in Sarajevo... I do not know what to tell you. Some people who were at the leading positions in the Army of Bosnia-Hercegovina, in the military prosecutor's office, and various security forces of Bosnia-Hercegovina told me that it was both in my and their interest that I leave, since they had a hard time protecting Kljuic and did not know how to protect both of us. You know that first bullets were fired on my house as soon as the barricades went up. They were shooting at my son and my wife and only luck saved them.
DANI: Then, you returned from Washington to Zagreb?
PERINOVIC: That is correct. I returned from Washington to Zagreb. I always believed that the defense of Bosnia-Hercegovina was at the same time the defense of Croatia. At the time I still actively collaborated with the Croatian Party of Rights of Dobrosav Paraga. We tried to organize defense and assist Bosnia-Hercegovina, as much as we could. On several occasions I stated that Bosniaks, by defending Bosnia-Hercegovina were at the same time defending Croatia, and that Croatia had to at all cost assist the Army of Bosnia-Hercegovina in the defense of our territory. However, that was not received well in Zagreb. I was even publicly criticized, and on several occasions denounced as Alija's mujahedeen. Imagine Davor Perinovic as a mujahedeen. I officially became that in Zagreb. I was several times attacked in the Zagreb weekly Globus, which to this day claims to be an independent publication. In Zagreb I talked at that time with a fine gentleman, General Ivo Prodan, who was in charge of Medical Corps in the Croatian Army and who was well aware of my personal and professional connections with the U.S. military. Then I simply said: if the state is in war, let us see what can be done, and if necessary we shall argue about politics after the war is over, but now it's time to do something. He openly told me that, in spite of my connections with the U.S> military, he could not give me a job because of political reasons.
DANI: You're not implying that all the humanity boiled down to one general?
PERINOVIC: Of course not. Stipe Mesic, my true friend, received me well in Zagreb. I met Stipe on several occasions and he was courageous enough, at the time while he was still one of the HDZ leaders, to openly tell me: no one else has been treated so badly and ignominiously as you have been. Then I met Josip Manolic and Perica Juric, people who soon after that officially denounced HDZ policy towards Bosnia-Hercegovina. Then, in Zagreb, several good friends from Western Hercegovina warned me to leave. A man from Hercegovina, I do not want to reveal his name, informed me about the discussions in those circles in Zagreb and within the Hercegovina lobby.
DANI: What were these discussions about?
PERINOVIC: He told me that Gojko Susak ordered Tuta Naletelic to neutralize me and you know very well what that means. Then, I very quietly, with a small bag, almost a plastic bag, as a true refugee, I got on a train and in early December ended up in Munich. Of course, thanks to my degrees from Germany, I officially reported to the authorities in December 28 1992 and already on January 7 1993 I had a job at the Orthopedic University Clinic in Heidelberg as a lecturer in orthopedics and general surgery and soon afterwards I started teaching child orthopedics at the University in Heidelberg. Of course, all the time I worked at the Orthopedic Clinic in Heidelberg as an orthopedic specialist and a surgeon. I worked with the people such as professor Kotta. By the way, he is famous as the personal physician of Steffi Graf and Boris Becker. I worked with Dr. Alfred Jussbacher, who is the official physician of the German Olympic Team. That was my period connected with Heidelberg. Of course, after my arrival to Heidelberg, I immediately contacted our embassies and consulates. When I say ours, I mean embassies of Bosnia-Hercegovina, because I traveled everywhere with a passport with lilies [old Bosnian coat of arms] and I am very sorry today that those lilies were taken away from us. Then I contacted our center for the care of wounded persons in Munich, which was in turn closely working with our consulate in Munich. I collaborated very closely with a great humanist and really great physician of the Army of Bosnia-Hercegovina, Dr. Safer Kavgic, so that I organized free operations for our wounded soldiers. Again, when I say our soldiers, I am referring to the soldiers of the Army of Bosnia-Hercegovina, and I can tell you that not all of them were Bosniaks. Some of them were Bosnians of Serb and Croat origin who fought for Bosnia. Therefore, in cooperation with the clinic in Heidelberg we operated on as many wounded soldiers as possible. We organized plastic surgery there.
DANI: Did you personally operate on any soldiers of the Army of Bosnia-Hercegovina?
PERINOVIC: Yes, I did, I operated on several of our soldiers. I have their medical documentation. I can show you that another time. They were very grateful later. I heard that they even publicly thanked me on some local radio stations in Sarajevo, Zenica and Tuzla. Similarly, I have an envelope with several thank you letters from our soldiers.
DANI: Your family joined you in the meantime?
PERINOVIC: That is correct. My family came in the meantime from Zagreb. Thanks to the city of Heidelberg, we got a very nice apartment, and I spent almost four years there. You know that I did not have any problems to obtain a work permit in Germany, since I had all sorts of their qualifications, degrees, licenses, so that, as far as the work in my profession was concerned that was not a problem. However, I arrived as a Bosnian, as a refugee, which means that I had a duldung like everyone else. At the time when the German government started forced repatriation of refugees from Bosnia-Hercegovina, when, for example, they started deporting people who escaped from the so-called Serb entity, when they started rounding up children in kindergartens, women in nursing homes, and packing them into airplanes, and trains, and I remember this period very well as a member of the chief board of the coalition for return, then we, of course, were in the same situation and were to be deported in spite of all my qualifications. After a conversation with our diplomatic representatives and representatives of our authorities, I was indirectly advised that it was still unsafe for me to return to Sarajevo, and that our authorities would inform me when such a time came. The German side indirectly advised me to submit an application for asylum, since I could stay in the country only in that status. Now, look, I came to Germany as a citizen of Bosnia-Hercegovina, and if I were to submit an application for asylum, that would mean that I was submitting an application against my own state. Actually, that would imply that I was giving up all of my previous work. If I had risked my life and lives of my family, I was not willing to give all of that up for the sake of an asylum. Then, a stroke of luck helped us. A good friend of mine, a Protestant minister suggested me to try to go to New Zealand because the government of New Zealand had just declared that it was seeking experts in my field. I submitted my papers. I can tell you that I very quickly got a permanent residence permit for New Zealand.
DANI: When did you leave for New Zealand?
PERINOVIC: I arrived there on May 17, 1996.
DANI: Before we turn to that period of your life, let us go back to something that, I can confirm that, caused quite a shock in at the time blocked and cut off Sarajevo: your serialized auto-biography published in NIN. The auto-biography was published in 14 installments late in 1993 under the headline The Serb Who Founded HDZ! Why did you publish your contradictory life story in the magazine that had been transformed from the best political weekly in the former Yugoslavia into a nationalist publication of the greater Serbian hegemonistic policy? Having in mind your previous political background, the serial in NIN seemed like pure science fiction!?
PERINOVIC: You are right, but I would like to clarify that a bit. Why did I publish that serial in NIN? Let me digress again. I had to leave Zagreb earlier than planned. You know well what happened to Blaz Kraljevic, what happened to Anto Paradzik, what happened even to singer Tomislav Ivcic, what happened to the president of the Croatian Election Commission after the elections in 1992 and many others who perished in "traffic accidents". After a very serious warning, I had to run from Zagreb. I knew very well who Gojko Susak was, I knew people around him. They are still around, probably hiding in mouse holes. Many of them were professional murderers for hire, people who carried our dirty work for UDBA, KOS, and then I realized that my life was in danger. Of course, I conducted many conversations with my friends in Germany and the U.S. Contact with Sarajevo was de facto impossible at the time. I was advised that there were two ways to get out. One was total anonymity, hiding in a mouse hole of sorts. The drawback of this solution was that once you disappear from public view, if you are found it is that much easier to kill you. The other way was to follow the old American saying the more exposed, the better protected. You know that I never refrained from making public statements and public appearances, so that I thought that the second option was much more acceptable. First, because I knew the exact causes of the war in Bosnia-Hercegovina as a witness of the criminal policy of Franjo Tudman and Gojko Susak. Similarly, I was a witness of the criminal policy of a part of Hercegovina lobby, since we cannot now accuse the whole population of Western Hercegovina of all that, because individuals from Western Hercegovina saved my life. Let me tell you that immediately: the first one, the one who warned me in Zagreb, he was immediately, in 1992, denounced by the newspapers, fired and publicly pilloried in Vjesnik and Vecernji List. Therefore, I had to pay them back. On the other hand, I was aware that the information I had had to be published, since I realized that the danger for my life was coming from Zagreb. I found that incredibly disappointing and discouraging. Why from Zagreb? You know well that the SDS, Karadzic and all of them publicly proclaimed their policy with respect to Bosnia-Hercegovina; you remember their statements in the Parliament. Therefore, we more-or-less knew what to expect. We thought that Zagreb and Croatia were our friends. You know that old proverb: I can protect myself from my enemies, but may God protect me from my friends. Therefore, the worst danger came from the other side and was unexpected. Thus, I wanted to warn the world public and the public in Bosnia-Hercegovina about what had been prepared and what was coming.
DANI: Why did you choose NIN?
PERINOVIC: Excellent question. Because that was the only option. I tried first to publish that on several occasions in Sarajevo and had indirect contacts with several of your colleagues. Of course, I took the indirect approach in my attempt to have this published in Sarajevo. Above all that would have been technically very difficult to accomplish, because of the horrible blockade in which the city was at the time, and it could have depressed the inhabitants of the city even more. You cannot take away all illusions, people must have hope. Therefore, Sarajevo was out of question. In Zagreb, something like that was absolutely impossible. Several journalists from Zagreb, when they checked the material, concluded that it was very interesting but that they had families and did not dare publish something like that. Then I remembered a good friend from Sarajevo who helped to have all that published in NIN. He is an excellent journalist, both a convinced Yugoslav, as well as a Bosnian. He was never a nationalist. His wife was a Croat, his best friend a Bosniak. During the war he hosted in his apartment in Belgrade both Croats and Bosniaks and lived together with them in a one bedroom apartment. He helped them make it to Sweden, got them the necessary papers and supported them in really difficult economic circumstances for a whole year. I thought that he was the best person for this...
DANI: Sreten Popovic?
PERINOVIC: That is correct. At the time I had reliable information that NIN was in conflict with the Politika publishing house, that it had de facto separated from Politika and was trying to lead a more independent editorial policy. You know that at the time, most of those diplomatic canals, probably because of inertia, went through Belgrade, so that because of that NIN seemed as the best solution. I worked during day in Heidelberg, and dictated the article at night. The whole article was put together over perhaps fifteen to twenty nights. After a lot of mishaps, the material finally made it to Belgrade and NIN began to publish it. Of course, the reactions were exactly as I had expected, but we should also recall positive reactions. All the foreign embassies in Belgrade picked up those issues of NIN. They not only picked up those copies, but photocopied the article and then smuggled it back to Zagreb... That article caught a lot of attention and increased the circulation of NIN so much that the editors stretched the planned 6-7 installments to fourteen. They simply reduced the serial from four to two pages per issue to stretch it over more issues. That is an old journalistic trick. What was the significance of that serial? I for the first time pointed out the policy of Zagreb with respect to Bosnia-Hercegovina, I for the first time revealed the danger coming from the Hercegovina lobby, I dared confront Gojko Susak and the part of Western Hercegovina leadership that robbed the Croatian people and together with their brothers from the SDS caused bloodshed in Bosnia-Hercegovina. The International Community read that very carefully. That was the first publication of the claims regarding the danger of that Hercegovina lobby ever. Obviously, my fate is to be first in everything.