Former Yugoslav People's Army officer, high official of the Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia, representative of the Democratic People's Union (DNZ) in the Federation Parliament, accused of and condemned for war crimes, Ibrahim Djedovic is again one of trump cards of the DNZ leader, Fikret Abdic. Acquitted of all charges, Djedovic is back on the political scene and in the period before the general elections, just as the information about an investigation of the crime committed by members of the Fifth Corps in Plitvice in 1995 is arriving, he unreservedly blames the Fifth Corps for the inter-Bosniak conflict. The leading candidate of the DNZ in the elections for the lower chamber of the Bosnian parliament talks to Dani about the functioning of the AP Western Bosnia and firmly sticks to his assertion that Abdic's project could have ended the war
DJEDOVIC: There is my order which literally says: "Based on the current needs, and in order to prevent illegal arrests of citizens I forbid imprisonment of anyone without collected material and verbal evidence about the committed act".
Therefore you opposed the government of AP ZB with that order?
I tried with that act to bring all activities in accordance with law. And that order is not the only action of that sort. There are another nine declarations whose goal was to prevent illegal arrests, revenge against neighbors and friends and simply to make sure people do not use that time and circumstances to settle their personal accounts and grievances. Unfortunately, there were such incidents. But, with those orders I tried to make sure that every individual be treated only on the basis of facts and arguments. And many other documents demonstrate my efforts to make sure that judiciary used expedited procedure when establishing whether isolated individuals should have been indicted on criminal charges.
Did that apply to the camps which existed in the territory controlled by the Autonomy?
During the first Autonomy, there was a collection center Drmeljevo and my acts and orders referred specifically to the individuals held in that collection center.
You refer to that as a collection center, but we refer to it as a camp.
That is your prerogative.
Today, what is your interpretation of the war against the Fifth Corps, about which many experts think very highly because of the large territory they have liberated?
They did not liberate anything, those are simply tall tales. Tell me, which place did they liberate?
Sanski Most.
That is not correct. Sanski Most was liberated in the final operations of the war, and everything had been agreed five months before.
What about Kljuc?
The same - final operations. Everything had been agreed by the American leadership, the European Union, and representatives of the Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats, five months earlier.
Only one remark: America and the European leadership also agreed that Srebrenica become a demilitarized zone, but the enclave fell nevertheless.
Exactly my point. That agreement achieved the division of territory based on the ratio 49:51, six or seven months before the Dayton Agreement. That is an introduction into the Dayton Agreement where everything was specified.
Do you think that the war between the units of the Fifth Corps and those fighting for the Autonomy was necessary?
The public of Bosnia-Hercegovina has been fed so much wrong information about that war. Units of People's Defense of AP ZB never prepared or planned for a conflict. Besides, a delegation of the Fifth Corps also attended the declaration of the AP ZB. They applauded in the first row. I think that that delegation was led by colonel Devisevic. There is a video recording and you can take a look at it if you wish. Everyone supported autonomy as a solution, including the command of the Corps. Ramiz Drakovic was eating lunch or dinner every other day with Fikret Abdic. That company was also present at the declaration of the Autonomy. On September 13, 1993, the Assembly of the district accepted the initiative for the establishment of an autonomy as a transitional solution. Because of political concerns the new leadership founded their own party and organized an assembly of the founders. About 30,000 people showed up. But in the meantime an order had been received, I do not know whose order, that people be prevented from going to that assembly. And they started taking people off buses and trucks. Everything was done to prevent them from going there. During the assembly we were informed that units of the Fifth Corps had headed for Kladusa with the only rocket launcher held by the Corps. That information was passed to the people and they went to meet the Corps. They stopped in Johovica and Skokovi. However, the Fifth Corps had been ordered to enter Kladusa at any price. And the people opposed that. They started to shoot. A Reuters journalist was there and he recorded everything. But he was arrested by the Fifth Corps. The units of the People's Defense were established on October 4, 1993, as a result of all the previous events.
Do you really think that all that was necessary?
That was not necessary. I was simply relating the first days of the conflict and the establishment of the People's Defense.
Yes, but more than 1,000 individuals died in that conflict?
From my point of view, that was not necessary, but the real answer to that question must come from the person who ordered that force be used.
Or the one who ordered the establishment of the AP ZB?
I've just told you how everything started. For example, if the two of us agree about something and plan a realization, and in the end we part and I attack you, who would be responsible for that?
Therefore, you claim that Alija Izetbegovic and Fikret Abdic agreed about the establishment of the autonomous province?
I cannot claim that with certainty. I told you how the events developed, from one hour to another. And who was behind which decision and how, many of us will never understand that. In that situation, some were on one position, others on other, and unfortunately, everything resulted in victims. We even then called for talks with someone from Sarajevo. There are documents proving that. Until this day, no one understands what exactly happened, since up to one moment we were all working together and in harmony and suddenly some of us pulled back and started to shoot. We wanted an explanation from Sarajevo, but instead of an explanation they sent more units to attack us.
Therefore, you do not think that Fikret Abdic came to Kladusa with the goal of taking personal control of all of Bosnia-Hercegovina?
I do not think so. I was in Kladusa when Fikret Abdic arrived. The first thing he did was to gather all units and include them in the Corps. And everything was done together. I already told you that the Corps commander Drekovic ate every other day with Abdic, until the proclamation of the Autonomy. The complete financing of the military and the defense of that region was realized because Abdic's arrival opened an economic corridor with the French battalion. All needs of the Corps command staff were fulfilled via that battalion. We are talking merely about food. Therefore, their needs were fulfilled via that corridor and the supplies were first given to the Corps command staff and their logistic support. I think that Becir Sirovina was a deputy commander for logistic. We also supplied shops, distributed salaries to the soldiers of the Corps and that system worked non-stop, including 1993 up to the fateful date. Based on that behavior I cannot agree with your assertion.
The fact that Abdic met every other day with Mr. Drekovic does not mean much since, as far as we know, Abdic at the same time met with the leader of the Croatian Serb rebels, Milan Martic?
No, he did not.
When did he begin to have meetings with Martic?
At that time Abdic definitely did not have meetings with Martic. He only met with Drekovic. Besides the first meeting between Abdic and Martic, the controversial one, was actually not interpreted correctly at all. After the fall of the first Autonomy, we became refugees. There were between 50,000 and 60,000 of us. The Serbs, who controlled a part of Croatia, let us go through. At the time there was a UNPA zone between Croats and Serbs in Croatia. We stayed in that zone, but there was not enough space for all the exiles. Because of that some of the refugees were moved to Batnoga, a farm with 24 buildings. We lacked everything, especially bread. At that time, Abdic, as far as I know, contacted Martic, but only to start bakeries and provide people with bread.
Yes, but at that time the cooperation with the army that was attacking Bosnia-Hercegovina was providing an argument to those who claimed that the war in Bosnia-Hercegovina was a civil war?
There was no cooperation with the military. There was no fighting.
Then the cooperation was just established?
If you want to discuss these events, we have to stick to the chronological order.
What were you doing in 1995 at the parade of Martic's military units in Knin?
Again that is related to the story about bakeries and provision of bread to our refugees. You ask - how come there was dialogue with Martic? In that period all significant world leaders and officials met with Martic, because simply Martic was making decisions in that territory. Tens of thousands of us from the Autonomous Province ended up in that territory and we had to at least provide bread to those people. And that is the result of that. I had no military tasks in Knin. I worked as a deputy director of Agrokomerc. I imported goods from Italy via Belgrade Agrokomerc in order to start production in Agrokomerc Velika Kladusa. And that is why I was there.
That makes it even more suspicious. What was an intermediary doing at a military parade and then with colonel Zulovic?
I know who he is. I think I spent with him as much time as with you today.
There are claims that he got to AP Western Bosnia following direct orders from Belgrade and that he had specific tasks and orders?
I do not know the reason and motives for his arrival. I only know that today, as far as I know, he is working as an instructor in a military school in Zenica.
Do you agree with the theory that the establishment of the Autonomous Province Western Bosnia extended the war in Bosnia for at least another year?
No, I don't. The autonomy was the first one to offer a possibility to stop the war, since one of the first goals of the autonomy was to establish peace.
At that time, the establishment of the autonomy meant an opening of a second front and provision of evidence that the war in Bosnia-Hercegovina was a civil war.
No, I do not agree. But you have the right to your opinion. I will again repeat that the autonomy was established with full support of all military and civilian authorities. And that support suddenly disappeared. Based on someone's orders. I would be happy if it was possible to organize a scientific discussion of all relevant scientific, military, political, international, independent and other associations and discuss the autonomy. That would allow us to objectively interpret all the elements - provision of weapons and equipment, supply of food and goods and hunger in that territory. The price of flour at the time was DM700 to DM1,000. Very few people were able to provide a minimum for their children. Our goal was to start production and, believe me, we soon managed to organize first convoys for Tuzla, Zenica, and Sarajevo...
Mr. Djedovic, why did not you place yourself at the disposal of the Army of Bosnia-Hercegovina?
In 1991 I worked in Skopje as an officer of the Yugoslav People's Army. My wife is a veterinarian and she worked as a state veterinarian inspector in Macedonia. We had our own apartment and a promise from the Macedonian authorities that my wife would be allowed to keep her job, and that I would be given a suitable place at the University or a similar job in accordance with my professional training. Both of us refused those offers because we wanted to return to Bosnia-Hercegovina. We made our decision in mid-1991. I took a vacation and returned to my birth-place, Kalesija. I went from door to door in Kalesija, Sarajevo and Tuzla asking for any sort of employment. However, to my great disappointment, no one was prepared to even talk to me. And when we lost all hope, we tried at the Bosnian Presidency. One morning I went to the Presidency and requested to have a short meeting with Izetbegopvic or Abdic. That day, neither of them had time to receive us. I insisted with the secretaries and was finally received by Fikret Abdic, actually Isak Deljanin his chief of staff and advisor for economic matters. We talked for two hours and I presented him my documentation. Then Abdic showed up and said that he could not get me a job in Sarajevo but only in Kladusa. I moved to Kladusa on November 5 1991 with my wife and children and reported the following day to Mirsad Veladzic, at the time the president of the Executive Council of the Velika Kladusa Municipality. He took one look at me and said - we do not need you, go to whoever sent you here. Disappointed I went to the Agrokomerc management and was appointed for the director of transport. I worked at that position until the attack on Krupa in April 1992. I again went to the municipal secretariat for territorial defense and put myself at disposal of the authorities. They told me, we know where you are and will call you if you are needed. And when Murat Sabanovic spoke about blowing up the dam in Visegrad, I again went to the secretariat for territorial defense and they again told me - we'll call you if you're needed. That was the last time I offered my help.
Why do you think that the autonomy, had it survived, would have stopped the war?
I believe that if that idea survived the fighting in Bosnia-Hercegovina would have stopped in at most six months and it would be easy to agree about economic links in all regions. Besides, at the time of the establishment of the autonomy Serbs controlled 74% of the territory of Bosnia-Hercegovina. Therefore, they at the time were looking for a way to stop the war. If you remember, they as early as at the end of 1992, or in early 1993, I am not sure, abolished the state of war, since they had accomplished most of their goals at the very beginning of those unfortunate days. They were prepared to negotiate. We have a map of the autonomy which includes within the autonomy Bihac, Petrovac, and Krupa and many other territories that were included in the final operations, true by force, in the Una-Sana Canton. I think that they were prepared, and they understood the intentions of the world as early as in 1993, that the war was supposed to end without a winner, by division of territory.
You were arrested in the hall of the Federal Parliament on may 7 1996 under the accusation that you had committed war crimes. Were you aware that you had been suspected of war crimes and that you could have been arrested?
I was arrested in the Parliament waiting for a lunch brake. That was my fourth trip to Sarajevo. I did not know that I would be arrested as before my first arrival to Sarajevo I had received firm guarantees from the Office of the High Representative and member of the Presidency Izetbegovic that my security and unimpeded work in the Parliament were guaranteed. When I later repeated my request before my second trip to Sarajevo I was told that once issued guarantees do not expire.
However, those guarantees expired on May 7?
Yes, and I was not aware of that. I was approached in the hall of the Parliament by policemen dressed in civilian clothing. They pulled me away from other representatives, took me under my arms and said - follow us. To my question why, they told me that I would find out soon. They took me out of the hall of the Federal Parliament and drove me in a van to the Police Hall. I spent four hours there. No one talked to me. They did not explain why I had been arrested, nor what they planned to do with me, nor what I was waiting for. After those four hours the same people returned and took me back to the Federation Parliament. They took me to a room in which waited deputy high representative Mr. Steiner, assistant of the High Representative, chief of the human rights department Pegy Hicks, IPTF chief and other international representatives. Steiner explained to me that I had been arrested based on a war crimes indictment. I immediately told him - "I want to be tried in the Hague". The international representatives promised to check whether the Hague was interested in my prosecution. After that I walked out of the Parliament. Ganic went with me, holding my arm. While he walked with me he explained that the Police was waiting at the entrance. I was driven to Holiday Inn and locked up in room 906. Members of the Federal Police, IPTF and a translator were waiting for me there. Another two Federation policemen were in front of the door. I spent 48 hours there. Steiner visited me twice and told me that the Hague was not interested in my prosecution. I suppose that Ms. Vasvija Vidovic [Bosniak representative for contact with the Hague Tribunal] did a good job there by managing together with AID [Bosniak intelligence service] to obtain the Tribunal's agreement to have me tried in Bosnia-Hercegovina.
You were accused of war crimes. What was the evidence presented by the prosecution?
They had statements of a number of people held in the collection centers. All that happened in those collection centers was blamed on me. Besides, while I worked in the Federation Parliament, I was already on trial in Bihac. When I talked about that with Minister Hebib [Minister of Police] and some people from the SDA they told me that all of that would calm down. No one even asked me to appear at that trial in Bihac. However, I did not think that that was important since I had guarantees from Izetbegovic himself. The Cantonal Court in Bihac was at the time under the influence of the former governor Veladzic, about whose personality and actions we shall hear a lot more, I believe. The indictment against me was tailored in Bihac and I am convinced that it was totally fabricated.
What do you mean - fabricated?
For example, some of the testimonies.
How many witnesses did the prosecution have?
There were 65 of them. AID carried out the selection of witnesses. During the investigation I was not allowed to meet and talk to my lawyers, Senka Nozica and Martin Raguz. My lawyers were even not allowed to for five months inspect my file. Only after the pressure from the international community they were allowed to inspect my file. The investigation went on for six months. After that they issued an indictment with 11 charges. Briefly, I was charged with everything that anyone did during the First and Second Autonomy: that I ordered that civilians and soldiers be imprisoned, that a prison, which by the way existed several years before my arrival in Valika Kladisa, be established, that all maltreatment and murders were ordered and planned by me. The trial started in February 1998. Saban Maksumic was the judge, and the judicial council had five members. Ibrahim Hadzic was the investigative judge.
What did the prosecution witnesses say about you?
Most of them, when talking about me, had nothing to say, since there is not one specific criminal act I can be blamed for. Most of witnesses stated that they had never seen me.
What did others say?
They said that they had heard, but were not convinced, that I had been in charge.
Who signed arrest warrants in the Autonomy?
During the first Autonomy, arrest warrants were signed by Zlatko Jusic, who was at the time prime minister in the government of AP Western Bosnia. That document orders that those individuals suspected of working for the other side in the conflict be isolated. Such arrests are allowed by the Geneva conventions. During the second Autonomy there were five centers. I heard for two of them for the first time at the trial. In the second Autonomy, arrest warrants were signed by Serif Mustedanagic, the chief of staff. But that order only mentions individuals who should be urgently investigated for suspicion of looting, stealing, maltreating people, while we were in exile, or for cooperation with the Fifth Corps in general.
Do you know how many individuals were held in camps during the first and second Autonomies?
That is hard to say. The prosecutor started with the figure of over 6,500 people. However, during the trial that figure was reduced and in the end the prosecutor himself gave up that figure since it was obvious that it did not make any sense.
What was the verdict of the Cantonal Court?
The Cantonal Court acquitted me of the charge of keeping soldiers in captivity and all other charges but sentenced me to 10 years in prison for keeping civilians in captivity. That was after 18 months spent in jail. The sentence was totally baseless, as since the court could not refer to statements by witnesses it referred to some documents from the case file that were either not signed by me, or they took sentences out of the context. Of course, my lawyers appealed to the Supreme Court. The worst incident took place during the appeal process. Irfan Ajanovic told the representatives of the DNZ in the Federation Parliament: you managed to defend him from everything, let us see you defend him from rape charges.
Is there any other indication, apart from that Ajanovic's sentence, that, as you claim, the rape accusation was fabricated by high SDA officials and AID agents?
The person who was allegedly raped was questioned during an investigation in the Cantonal Court in Sarajevo. I could not attend that questioning. She was brought to the trial because the prosecutor had read her statement in the book I begged them to kill me. However, if you read her statement from the book she does not claim anywhere that I had raped her. Because of that I claim that the whole game was set up by AID and some SDA officials. The girl was obviously exploited in this case. She nevertheless turned out to be an honorable person since she responded to the question by the judge - is that the man who raped you? - by "I am not sure". And the scientific literature states that it is impossible for a victim to forget her rapist. Besides her statement is full of contradictory claims, since at one point she says that her friend was killed immediately after the arrest, while later it turns out that the friend was alive and kicking. The court realized that there is no evidence in that case and acquitted me. The prosecutor has appealed that acquittal. Human rights organizations compare my case with that of the Srebrenica three.