interview by Emir Imamovic
LUGAVIC: On May 16, at about 9 or 10am, I received a note stating that I had been dismissed from the duty of the chief imam, and that the decision had been made on April 24.
Did that note explain why you were dismissed?
The justification states that I was dismissed in order to improve the religious life in Tuzla and that I did not achieve desired results.
What results are these, and what does the improvement of religious life mean?
I asked Muharem ef. Omerdic, the head of religious-legal affairs [in the Islamic Community] to explain the decision to me. He said: be quiet, you'll achieve nothing and may even loose your salary. Of course, I do not know what these desired results are. I informed the Tuzla Muftiate and the Riyaset of the Islamic Community regularly about my work. Also, every month we had meetings of imams at which religious education and religious life in the city of Tuzla was always the main topic of discussion.
However, this is not the first time that your dismissal is on the agenda. Your dismissal has been announced several times so far, most loudly in May 1995.
This has been going on for a long time. I was also criticized for refusing to support a certain political party. In my opinion in the mosque all believers, regardless of their party affiliation, are the same. That attitude probably did not satisfy certain norms of behavior. On the other hand, during the war I wanted to communicate and cooperate with people who remained in this city, with other nations, other religions, since I believed and continue to believe that by doing that I did nothing more than follow God's message, which is well known to everyone. Dear God said: we made you as males and females so that you can get to know each other and live together. I did not have that hatred towards others within me, and I behaved accordingly. The culmination of this was after May 25, 1995. On that day, children, the youth of this city, were killed in one place. I was hurt when I heard comments that they would not have died if they had been on the front instead of in a café, where they perhaps consumed alcohol, although at that time it was difficult to find enough food in the city. I protested saying that death is not reserved only for those who think this or that way, but that death was determined by God and God only. No one knows where he would die, when and how, and therefore those children should not have been blamed for anything. Then there were claims that they could not all be buried together. I agreed, and not only I, I was not alone, to bow them a dzenaza [recite prayers on their Islamic funeral]. I did not have a single valid reason, neither religious, nor moral not any other, not to bow a dzenaza to those children, to the youth slain at the Tuzla Kapija, although the instructions stated that that should not have been be done. That was the start of my downward path. Every time I met Fr. Petar Matanovic, the abbot of the Franciscan monastery in Tuzla, someone would always say "look, you cooperate even with them". It's always them and us. All the time I have been trying to establish a bridge through which people will one day understand that they are nothing but people who live here. Others here also know that Fr. Petar Matanovic assisted imams during the war. I believe and will continue to believe that it is inhumane and un-Islamic to forget someone's goodness.
Your 27 years of experience at the post of the chief imam in Tuzla must have left a deep imprint. This is probably the only occasion that has brought together so many different organization in Tuzla with the goal of demanding that you remain at your post. Were you surprised by the reaction of the citizens of Tuzla and what is your comment of the effect of their reaction on the religious circles: their anger at the support you are receiving from, as they say, extremist secularists?
Every religion has the following concept: do as you wish but your deeds will be evaluated and seen by someone. All that I have done, I did on behalf of God, and really I had no intention of promoting myself. I felt the faith, I felt the people in this city, I felt every man and every tear, every pain and every joy, since this city and its citizens have helped me in my life. You know, I came here after graduating at the age of 23-24; this city took me in, gave me a home, helped me to make something out of my life; I never had any problems. I can thinks of hundreds of examples that I called selam [Islamic greeting] to Serbs and Catholics [Croats] in the city not knowing who they were and they responded by saying selam. Once, I said selam to Mr. Ljubomir Jurak and he said "selam aleykum". Then my colleagues laughed at me saying: "Do you know who you said selam to?" I said "to a man". "But he is not a Muslim!" I said "but he responded by saying selam aleykum. Because he is a gentleman." The following day I met Mr. Jurak and apologized to him. He said: "Please, there is no need to apologize for stuff like that. I only care whether you are a good man. You could have greeted me in any manner and I would have accepted that from you." How can I say anything against people like that, the citizens of Tuzla? At the time when I started working in Tuzla, salaries were definitely not plentiful, so that the citizens of this city helped me a lot. People believed in me and I am immeasurably grateful to them for that. They probably realized what was hiding behind this. I hope that the citizens of this city will win. Victory is an ugly word, but they will definitely tell to some people over there that this cannot go on like this. No one has ever profited by going against the people. That is how it was in the past, and I hope it will continue to be that way.
Wouldn't you agree that you have already won a victory of sorts? Citizens and believers have expressed their support. Is the role of a religious official to be with the people or with the institution that can due to circumstances at times be on the other side?
I am absolutely certain that God's prophet Muhammed a.s. always checked the pulse of the people. Religious doctrines are beyond doubt, but they can go in two directions. In one case people accept a certain religion, in another they reject it. Dear God told Muhammed a.s.: If you had a frown on your face, if you were arrogant, you would not have achieved what you did. It has been said: When you want to call people to your faith, call them wisely and with nice words. I only tried to fulfill God's orders and sunnet of Muhammed a.s., to call to my faith with nice words, instead of arrogance. Of course I can never get even close to what the Prophet did, but I can at least try to follow his example.
What is your present relationship with the colleagues from the Islamic Community? What is their view of these events? At this moment, are you closer to the citizens of Tuzla or the officials of the Islamic Community?
People who attend my mosque are members of my dzemat [parish], and those who do not attend the mosque are citizens and it is the same to me whether they are Muslims or atheists. They will express themselves as they find appropriate. Honestly, I have moral support of my colleagues imams, but I am not sure how significant that support is if one of them says: "I support you, but I do not dare say anything..." It would be good to ask them why they are afraid, and why I am not. I am not special or different from them. I only want to speak out. I am only afraid of dear God, and I think I am doing the right thing. If I sin, I will be afraid of everyone.
Your father was a religious official, brother as well. You have a degree in the sharia law from Baghdad, and the SDA officials in Tuzla still dub you "the red imam". Why?
I could have only turned red with shame when I realized that they are capable of saying such things. And they did say such things. I do not know what it means to be a red imam, and what to be a green imam. I know that there is a green movement, a movement of ecologists. A religious official must follow the demands of his faith, space and time. My father was a religious official. My grandfather, let me boast a little, although I would prefer if you did not write about this, because it does amount to boasting, was a hadji [he performed the pilgrimage to Mecca]. I have a degree in the sharia law, my brother died as a religious official, it was God's will. My brother's children have graduated from a medresa [Islamic seminary, equivalent of secular high school]. If all of that implies that I am red, I accept that qualification.
Among the information that surfaced in connection with your dismissal there was even the claim that you have met the granddaughter of Josip Broz [Tito, former Yugoslav Communist ruler]. Have you met her, and why is that a problem after all?
That woman wrote a beautiful and good book with a very good title: Good people in evil times. That book mentions Banja Luka mufti, late Ibrahim ef. Halilovic in the best possible sense. His grave is located next to the Bey's Mosque in Sarajevo. She reserved the best words for ef. Halilovic, but she also mentioned a Serb Orthodox priest, I forget what his title was, and spoke very poorly of him. She had courage for that. Svetlana Broz was here at a promotion of her book; I went to that promotion but could not get in because of the crowd. After that Ms. Broz expressed a desire to meet me and the abbot of the Franciscan monastery. We talked in front of cameras in the studio of TV Tuzla. The abbot could not come because he was on a trip to Rome at the time. We talked about the book, and then the issue of mixed marriages was raised because Ms. Broz is preparing a book about mixed marriages. I said that religion has its attitude towards mixed marriages and, if people date, live, and do not care about religion and tradition, and any religious and national norms, but are simply indifferent, and get married, then children from such marriages are equal to other children and are not the way some claim they are. After that program secretary of the Muftiate Besim ef. Canic was sharply critical and said that I had inflicted damage on Islam and the Islamic Community with my participation and my statements in that show. I was dismissed a month later.
Have you ever been a member of a political party, especially during the last ten years of this gloomy democracy? If you haven't, why?
I was for a while, at the beginning. I joined the Party of Democratic Action (SDA) here in Tuzla. When I saw what was going on, I changed my mind and decided to stay out of politics. In my opinion, as a religious official, I have an obligation in the mosque towards the faithful. Besides as early as 1990, a decree was issued banning religious officials from involvement in politics, and that decree hasn't been repealed until today. No political party has ever been promoted in my mosque. Now some circles from the Islamic Community want to know: "Aren't you ashamed to be supported by the Social Democrats, the Serb Civic Council, the Civic Forum and Catholic priests?" If that deserves shame, I really have nothing to say.
What is the difference between the support you are getting from the SDP, the Serb Civic Council, the Civic Forum Tuzla, and the support some other imam may receive from the SDA, the Council of Bosniak Intellectuals, and the Muslim Youth organization?
Well, the latter are in power and the former are not. That could be a difference. I was surprised by the statement of Husein ef. Kavazovic who said that no one can meddle in the business of the Islamic Community. He also said that he was against the meddling of political parties in the work of religious institutions, and even the youngest child in this city knows that that has not been the case for a while.
Mr. Lugavic, is there a moral and legal or any other justification for what is happening to Muslims these days in Bosnia: while they live in extreme poverty, huge and expensive mosques are being built?
We only need to peek a bit deeper in the history of Islam in order to find an answer to all those questions. I certainly support the construction of religious objects, flourishing of religious life, full mosques and so on. I have no doubts in that respect. However, the sharia law has a rule that before a prayer a man must be humble and satisfied, because that is the only way to approach his dear God. Those who are hungry, they think about how to find a slice of bread for their children, worry whether they would have a job the following day, worry about their survival. That stops being the question of morality and becomes also a religious problem. I want to say that mosques should be built, but that we should also help the believers to become self-reliant and work, to live from their work. Qur'an explicitly states that mosques are built by those who believe in God and final judgment and are not afraid of anyone but God. I would prefer it if people had jobs, could support themselves with their work, and then built a mosque from their earnings. Our gratitude goes to all those who help construction of mosques but, by God, it is necessary to check how they do that. We believers and religious officials, must be concerned about that.
During the last few years a series of sects, people who interpret and practice Islam differently from Bosnian Muslims has sprouted in Bosnia-Hercegovina. Why is there no dialogue between Islamic officials and the young men who are already very radical in the expression of their beliefs?
A conversation about the origin of this phenomenon would take us very far, but I would like to comment on the last sentence from your question. Radicalism was never successful and widespread within Islam. One of the basic tenets of Islam is that the faith should be spread nicely and wisely, intelligently, through dialogue. It is necessary to enter into dialogue with these people and assist them to accept and practice Islam, if that is what they want to do, in the manner of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers. It is ugly to hear all those who claim that they had come to spread Islam in Tuzla, for example. Islam does not accept theories that it is un-Islamic to greet non-believers. It is ugly to hear that Muslims in that manner isolate themselves and their religion. Actually, in those cases something else surfaces under the guise of religion. We had ugly events in Tuzla during Bajram. I personally do not have a problem with public expressions of joy during holidays, but it is ugly when some of them shoot from weapons, scream... For example, in the past, in Tuzla quiet brass music was played for Bajram, people walked around in clogs and visited their friends. I have personally witnessed when Catholics congratulated Bajram to Muslims and visited them in their homes. No one paid attention who was who; it was always a neighbor with the best and most respectful attitude. I would like to see that that sort of Islam, traditional, harmless and genuine, true Islam, continues, and that is my key for everything that is happening: that obviously bothers someone.
Have you, as an expert for the sharia law, noticed tendencies, for example in the Islamic Community or in some political circles, to organize the life of Bosnian Muslims according to the sharia law?
If, perhaps, some Muslims were asked whether the sharia law should be introduced, they would reject that themselves, because they could not bear such norms. One has go give up all sorts of things and many could not do that. If you lie to someone, you'd have to be held responsible for that, and consequently some may not like the sharia law. Islam has in this region proven itself through centuries. This is a miraculous country where people lived the way they preferred through centuries. I am afraid of new tendencies in Islam, I am afraid of munafikluk [hypocrisy] in Islam, the one that does one, says another and thinks something else. I am not afraid of pure Islam, God forbid! On the contrary it is dear to me. I am not afraid of people who advocate Islam, but I am afraid of those who say "you are Muslims if you attend the mosque". True Muslims were described by Muhammed a.s. True believers are those who enjoy the trust of people and are not afraid to entrust both themselves and their property to others. These are not my words. That hadis [saying of the Prophet] exists and has been recorded.
Recently, there were many interpretations of the proper dress code for Muslim women, mostly provoked by the return of the dark veil over the faces of local women. What is your view of this issue?
Dear God very clearly and explicitly stated in the Qur'an: when you go to the mosque, dress properly. That properly has turned into a norm which requires that everything apart from hands, face and feet up to ankles must be covered. I do not see anything wrong in that. It is a problem if there is mischief in that. Then that is more harmful than useful for the faith. The essence is that Islam should raise a man in Islam, that he is a man in Islam both on the street and a Muslim from sabah to sabah, and not only a Muslim in a mosque and when needed. Reisul-ulema Dzemaludin Causevic at the time gave his opinion as a head of Muslims and I totally agree with him. He said that the dress code has no religious connotations outside namaz [Islamic prayer]. A woman should have her place in family, society, life. I think that we will make more progress with science, knowledge, culture, and civilization than by covering faces of women.
Recently, Zdravko Grebo said in an interview for Dani that secularism should be protected by the Constitution. Do you agree with him?
Yes. Why? Simply because I as a believer and the Islamic Community as an organization need space to be concerned with religion, to protect it and improve it. Islam cannot any more be explained to the children through stories of their elders, as in the past. Religion must be modernized. Religious officials must be much more forward looking. As long as we are concerned with other, instead of with ourselves, we shall, I am afraid, stagnate. That is why I support that initiative. Of course, I will be criticized for saying that as well.
Political and religious circles in Tuzla, especially at the beginning of the aggression, usually drew attention to the example of mufti Kurt, who during WWII publicly demanded from the Ustashe authorities to stop persecuting Serbs in Tuzla. When you, naturally in different times and significantly different, better, conditions, since Tuzla in the most recent war was not occupied, attempted to protect non-Muslims, you were first criticized and then dismissed. Does that make any sense?
Mufti Kurt, whom I always recall with deserved respect, was a man of the people. He sat in front of Alija's bar for several hours at a time and greeted passers by. Everyone knew his table and the exact time when he passed through the city. Mufti Kurt felt the pulse of the city. If in my work I even remotely approached that distinguished gentleman, that would make me extremely happy. I do not want to be misunderstood, but we very rarely see the present mufti of Tuzla among the people. Mufti Kurt was a symbol of this city. I can remind you that [Serb Orthodox] parson Jovanovic, when mufti Kurt died, requested to help place mufti Kurt's coffin in the grave. That's what our people are like. I am certain that Tuzla will remain what it has always been, and I want to continue living in Tuzla and to walk with clear conscience through this city. God judges in the end. God is the only judge. I know of an ayet from Qur'an which says: do as you wish and whatever you wish, and God, God's Prophet and good people will see your deeds. Here, good people from this city saw my work. Allah will see and I will, God willing, see Allah's will when my judgment comes.