interview by Jelena BJELICA
Kouchner is quite theatrical. He gives the impression of a man who is trying to convince his audience in the validity of his words through gesticulation and constant changes in the pitch of his voice. Perhaps a bit ambitious ("you are asking me to change the Balkans in a single year"). And cunning; he skillfully avoided answering the question whether Kosovo would gain independence ("ask the Albanians and Serbs, I am not their representative"). Now, after the fall of Milosevic's regime and democratic changes in Serbia, Kouchner assesses the situation in Kosovo as having improved considerably.
KOUCHNER: We must give Mr. Kostunica some time. Of course, the arrival of democracy and changes in Belgrade is an opportunity for beginning dialog with the FRY authorities, which will be of help both their and my own everyday policies. Therefore, I am waiting.
DANAS: In one of the statements you said that Mr. Kostunica should release illegally imprisoned Albanians?
KOUCHNER: Yes, of course. There are two reasons for this. The first is that about a thousand of them have already been released for a certain amount of money. That is not honest, that is not just. Those families which have money were able to pay to free their loved ones. That is not legal.
Another reason is that the majority of them were arrested in the streets, in houses, in beds, only because an order was issued to the army and police. They were sentenced on the basis of collective guilt, which is against all human rights throughout the world. For example, last time in Nis 123 from Djakovica were sentenced together to a thousand years in prison. This is not only illegal, not only dishonest, it is scandalous.
DANAS: After you asked Kostunica to release illegally imprisoned Albanians, the Serb side asked for the resolution of the issue of approximately a thousand missing Serbs, did it not?
KOUCHNER: Is anyone at all reading what I have said in Kosovo during the past 16 months? When I am talking about illegally imprisoned Albanians, they are the ones in Serbia, not here. I am absolutely prepared to open the doors of the prisons, and I have done so already, to all Serb attorneys who wish to come and see the cases. I have always offered them the opportunity to investigate here. We need to ask the Serb authorities about the illegally imprisoned persons about whom we are talking.
We have not received any kind of news from either the Serb nor the Albanian side regarding missing persons, I mean both Serbs and Albanians. I believe that the majority of them are unfortunately dead. Missing and imprisoned persons are not the same thing. The imprisoned are those who are imprisoned in Serbian jails; we have to ask those responsible over there about them, not others.
DANAS: At the meeting in Luxembourg at the beginning of last week you said that you would go to Belgrade if Mr. Kostunica invited you. Have you received an invitation?
KOUCHNER: I don't know when I will go to Belgrade. If Mr. Kostunica invites me I will go but he has not done so yet. I have many responsibilities in Kosovo but of course we must begin the discussion. He certainly needs to begin discussion with UNMIK. I am ready.
DANAS: At the meeting in Luxembourg you opposed the lifting of sanctions against FR Yugoslavia?
KOUCHNER: I was never opposed to the lifting of sanctions. What I said in Luxembourg was: you want to lift the sanctions, I am not the person to decide whether they should be lifted or not but I ask you to please offer them this as a parallel measure for releasing the prisoners. I personally have been opposed to the sanctions for quite some time. I think they are ineffective. The release of the prisoners was not a condition, I proposed that this be a part of a future plan because I am responsible for the local people who have suffered so much. That is my duty.
DANAS: How do changes in Serbia impact the Kosovo Serbs and the Kosovo Albanians?
KOUCHNER: Everyone welcomed the changes and was happy that democracy had arrived but some of them were not fond of Mr. Kostunica because he supports nationalism and because he opposed the autonomy of Kosovo according to the Constitution of 1974. In the end everyone agreed that this is a good opportunity to open discussion.
I assume that the Albanians assume that it will be more difficult for them. Some of the Albanian representatives are not fond of the new government because, for example, Mr. Djindjic was involved in the Bosnian war.
I am not their representative and cannot speak on their behalf; the truth is that they were happy because of the change but they will make their decisions on the basis of facts.
DANAS: Will Kostunica's victory make the job of the UNMIK administration and the international community easier?
KOUCHNER: I hope that it will. But until people's behavior changes it will not be easier. At the change of command ceremony of NATO everyone was there together, both Serb and Albanian leaders, and the atmosphere was different, more open. Things are moving ahead but slowly. People are still confronted with suffering, mass graves continue to be opened. Only 16 months have passed.
DANAS: According to Security Council Resolution 1244, a fixed number of FRY police and army forces, more precisely, less than a thousand, have the right to return to Kosovo...
KOUCHNER: No, I don't want them to send troops. I don't want a new war. All the other parts are implemented, why are you talking about the one part that is not...
DANAS: I'm only asking whether it is possible.
KOUCHNER: It's not!
DANAS: Considering that Kostunica is the new president of FRY, what if there are big changes in Serbia?
KOUCHNER: If the Yugoslav Army and police return here to Kosovo as foreseen by Resolution 1244, they will be killed. We would need to protect those troops with a large number of our international troops, which is senseless. It's not possible. I am not the only one who rejects this; it is also rejected by KFOR and by everyone else. The implementation of Resolution 1244 cannot be realized in a single day. It's a long process. At this time the return of the Yugoslav Army and police is not possible. There would be another bloodbath. I am in charge for security and peace, not war.
If things change, and I hope that they will, we'll see. I don't know.
DANAS: Change in what sense?
KOUCHNER: In the sense of opening of people and opening of borders everywhere. Not only borders between countries, but also borders between people's heads.
DANAS: For the peace process in Kosovo, communication between the Serbs and Albanians is essential; they don't seem to be communicating.
KOUCHNER: My impression is that but the reality is that they have never communicated, for centuries. Not in schools, not in colleges, nowhere. They ignored each other. You have not noticed this here in the Balkans, where you were born, but I have.
They have been together in this region for 13 centuries and they did not communicate; instead, they fought. You must set aside a realistic period of time for hope. It will be done. When, I don't know. Kosovo is moving toward something better but there are many things as yet undone.
DANAS: How long will the mission remain here, consider that you just said that these two nations have not been talking to each other for the past 13 centuries?
KOUCHNER: I don't know. Long enough for us to change people, to create success, not for me but for them. Do you have different advice; do you want the Yugoslav Army to return? What would be accomplished if the Yugoslav Army were here? You saw the results: war, murder, mass murder. The peacekeeping mission needs about 20 years. There is no other way.
DANAS: President Kostunica said that a solution for Kosovo could be found in two to three years. What do you think?
KOUCHNER: It depends on them. I think that reality will force him to think about Kosovo before two or three years have elapsed.
DANAS: How do you assess the security situation in Kosovo, especially in relation to the Serbs?
KOUCHNER: As inadequate, certainly. We still have two to four, sometime more, murders per week. Since the beginning of the pre-election campaign, the level of ethnic and political violence has been greatly reduced.
Unfortunately, just today a landmine exploded in Obilic and one Serb man was killed. When we arrived there were 45 murders per week.
We cannot protect every single Serb separately by giving him personal protection; we must change the behavior of people. This means building confidence, offering them the acceptance of coexistence, offering them democracy.
A month ago we began a campaign of tolerance-building campaign in the schools. After the elections, there will be a similar campaign for adults. We have a lot of registered NGO's specializing in human rights...
DANAS: Are you satisfied with what you have accomplished?
KOUCHNER: I am never satisfied. We did the best that we could but it is not enough. Now we have a mixed Kosovo police composition. A few days ago I held a speech at the police academy for the ninth generation and we have 2,249 policemen, of whom 10 percent are Serbs. We have only two multiethnic community services, the firefighters and the policemen.
DANAS: The Serbs in the north of Kosovo feel they are the victims of the policy of the international community which was directed against Milosevic. How do you comment on this?
KOUCHNER: We helped them just as we helped all the others. We took over the smelter in Zvecan, we paid them the same amount of money. It's true that we gave the Albanians more to start with but now this has been equalized: 1,000 in the north, 1,000 in the south.
People in the north were in a difficult position, poor, without any source of income and they were only receiving some dinars. We paid them in German marks because that's what they asked for. Don't tell me that I am building an independent Kosovo because I paid them in German marks when that's what they asked for.
DANAS: What will happen with Trepca?
KOUCHNER: I don't know; it will take 20 years for it to recover. I personally begged people throughout the world to collect 16 million dollars in order to create security for the employees. Trepca is a museum of horror. In order to restart the process and, of course, provide security for the environment, we will provide another few million dollars.
DANAS: Are you satisfied with the international community?
KOUCHNER: No, I amm never satisfied; I want much more. In the beginning there was more. I need to convince them at the end of this year and the beginning of the next. This is the first time in the history of the world that all donors are contributing for a budget and not for a project. As far as the budget is concerned, everyone is suspicious because that is an enormous, bottomless hole.
They completely rejected, at my first meeting in Brussels, to give money for a budget. And what about pensions? I have big problems with the Kosovars and the Serbs because I am no longer receiving money from Belgrade nor anywhere else. I don't have enough money for everyone; therefore, I need to convince them to create a fund for pensions; I don't know whether I will succeed.
DANAS: Is Trepca a potential source of income, considering the fact that the market price of lead is increasing each year by three percent?
KOUCHNER: If we manage to start it up again but so that it is safe for workers and the environment. You cannot imagine what kind of blood samples we have now. We have to reconstruct it, put filters in the chimneys and so on. If it starts working it will give enough money for us to pay the employees of Trepca. It cannot produce enough; some taxes for the budget, yes, but not enough for the budget of Kosovo.
"Both sides are the actually the same. And they are the same in essence, isolated in their minds. This is some sort of incomprehensible lack of comprehension. They didn't talk to each other and so it was not possible for them to understand each other."
"We cannot receive 100,000 Serbs because violence would break out again. We need to win over enough confidence from the Albanians. We need to begin discussion and initiate the issue of the open wound of Kosovo, missing persons. If they are dead, we have to say they are dead because their families want to bury them; that is a part of tradition among both Serbs and Albanians. That is our goal. We cannot talk about reconciliation; it is too early; we must talk about coexistence instead."
"Unfortunately, no one is perfect. I am a Frenchman. But it is better that you believe me because if you do not believe me it will be difficult for hope."
KOUCHNER: That is all right. That is the only way to stop the war: to go into politics. Hardinaj went into politics. In my country it was the same. And Tito did the same thing; he had a party after the war; he was a "lucky guy" and a "freedom fighter"; he fought against the Nazis. In Italy it was the same; everywhere, it is the same; it is a normal process. Here there are 5,000 candidates, more than 1,500 women; that is great progress for demmocracy. Unfortunately for the Serbs, they did not want to nominate themselves and now they cannot vote. A well-known incident occurred in Leposavic, where Serbs who wanted to register were brutally abused by Milosevic's and Ivanovic's people.
KOUCHNER: Some of the textbooks have already been changed; unfortunately, only for the Albanians. What about the Bosniaks, the Roma, the Serbs... We need to change the school system, the mentality of the instructors... But believe me, things are changing. Yesterday we opened a new school in the vicinity of Kosovo Polje; the school was full of peasants. It is an absolute novelty for us to invite the parents to come, for us to be in contact with them. For the past ten years, people functioned in a parallel system. They worked in caves; the children learned in basements. Now 95 percent of children go to elementary school, secondary school and university. That is a miracle, we have done so much. You are asking me to change the Balkans in a single year.